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Author Topic: 220 Engine Rebuild  (Read 887 times)

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Offline Scott Montoney

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  • 1952 - 220 Cab B
  • Exterior Color: Black
  • Interior color: Red
  • Location: Mason,Ohio USA
  • VIN #: 187.013.04370/52
  • Year_Model: '52 220 Cab B
Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2017, 05:08:37 PM »
As I mentioned in an earlier posting, This entire car was shipped back to Germany for repairs.  One of the many things done was to swap out the engine.
I have two photos to attach.  One is the data plate showing the correct and original number for the engine.
The second photo is of a second tag that I believe is what was done when the engine is swapped.
My original serial number is a 180.290 and I see the newer tag has 180.923.
Does anyone know what the 923 might mean?  As I mentioned earlier, I know it has "newer" piston design but I was just curious to know what the 180.923 means compared to the 180.920.
Thank you.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 05:10:35 PM by Scott Montoney »
"Gertrude" a.k.a. "Troidl"
1952 - 220 Cabriolet B

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2017, 09:11:07 PM »
I can't find a 180.923. The 220a and 219 single carb engines are 180.921. This was a block from 1957 re-stamped with the original engine number and with the original plate re-attached. You can see how poorly the stamping was done, the original stampings are usually cleaner.

Offline John Ellis

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Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #22 on: July 10, 2017, 11:02:30 PM »
These PDF's are from the "Mercedes Benz - Model List - Edition C, May 1964, publication 14 003".  Page 57 is the 180.920 engine and page 61 is the 180.923 engine.  Note that the 180.920 is an 80 PS motor, whereas the 180.923 is an 85 PS motor.  Hope this helps
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Charles Adamson

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  • 1951 220 Sedan
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  • Year_Model: 1951 220
Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #23 on: July 10, 2017, 11:14:39 PM »
Here is a link to Metric Motors.

http://mercedesengines.net/220-220s/

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2017, 12:09:40 AM »
Thanks for the reminder John, this is the version for the later Cab A with the 7.6 head. These variations in versions mostly designate different carbs, manifolds and sometimes compression ratios. To answer the question about rod bolts, they are available, expensive, and it's probably a good idea to replace them. You can use MB's specification for the maximum stretch if you want to go to that trouble.

Offline Scott Montoney

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  • 1952 - 220 Cab B
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  • Location: Mason,Ohio USA
  • VIN #: 187.013.04370/52
  • Year_Model: '52 220 Cab B
Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2017, 08:47:21 AM »
Thanks Gentlemen,
Every day I'm learning something new.
I'm sure that when the engine was swapped in '63, that is when it got the newer design pistons and the 7.6 aluminum head.
The block and head are pretty much stripped of all removable parts now.
I'm still cleaning things up and compiling my shopping list.
The hard part is going to be sorting out the mechanic that I trust to do the machine work correctly. 
In addition to the obvious engine repair, it would probably be the best time to have the clutch assembly done as well.
In fact, I ought to re-seal the transmission too.  It certainly had a lot of oil on it, and I don't think it was all from blow-back from engine and excess CLS oil.
I may get a few thing re-plated as well while waiting on the engine rebuild.
"Gertrude" a.k.a. "Troidl"
1952 - 220 Cabriolet B

Offline Scott Montoney

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  • VIN #: 187.013.04370/52
  • Year_Model: '52 220 Cab B
Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2017, 10:02:54 PM »
Henry,
To answer your earlier question. Yes, I have pulled and rebuilt an engine and clutch before.
And it ran another 100k miles, but it was not in the poor condition this one is in.
And, parts were readily available if I messed up. In this case, there is no room for error.
Unlike the other newer engine I did, I'm not willing to trust the machine work on this one to just any shop.

I wish I could afford to just leave the car with a shop and say "Do what needs to be done and call me when your finished" but I can't. I need to do as much as I can up to my limits of skill, experience, and tools.
So, once I get a good understanding of the total project, we'll see what needs to be outsourced.
"Gertrude" a.k.a. "Troidl"
1952 - 220 Cabriolet B

Offline John Ellis

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Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2017, 03:08:13 AM »
You might want to check this site for engine parts as an alternative to MB.  It may be difficult though with the replacement engine.

http://www.oldtimer-motorenteile.com
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2017, 07:50:13 AM »
This guy is not that easy to deal with. I've dealt with him directly and also through Eberhard Karasch. Some of his bearings are newly made reproductions. I had problems with some 170 bearings, bought from Karasch which he had sourced from Frank Mellmann and Mellmann would not make good on them. I have not bought any 220 bearings from him but new production 220 bearings are out there from all the suppliers, including Niemoeller,, and Maybe MB as well. I recently re-worked a 220 S recently rebuilt engine (by a machine shop that made some serious mistakes) that had some of these bearings and I didn't like these either. That's why I recommend getting NOS Glyco or other OE bearings.

He does have the 22 mm pin pistons, but same issue. If they or Mahle or Kolbenscmidt, OK. Also I would not use Egge Machine for pistons.

Offline Scott Montoney

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  • VIN #: 187.013.04370/52
  • Year_Model: '52 220 Cab B
Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2017, 09:42:54 AM »
Henry,
I'll contact you directly to further discuss some options.
"Gertrude" a.k.a. "Troidl"
1952 - 220 Cabriolet B

Offline John Ellis

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Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2017, 12:31:57 AM »
Good to know.  Thanks for sharing your experience Henry!

I wonder if Mercedes Benz has a engine parts list manual for the 180.923 engine.  Might be a good idea to check with the MB German Classic Center for assistance.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2017, 12:37:28 AM by John Ellis »
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2017, 10:02:08 AM »
In practical terms, these engine designation numbers don't mean much as far as engine rebuilds are concerned, at least for the bottom end. What you need to know is when running changes were made during the production run, and these numbers won't tell you that. Since the M 180 was built for a long time right through the 220b, Sb, some of the parts you would be getting are applicable to those sixties models, the bearings, for instance and the pistons (with 24 mm wrist pins). Occasionally some of the later parts have been changed but are usable. For instance, originally, the crank sprocket had shim rings to align with the other sprockets, then they eliminated the shims. They used to use an oil thrower ring, and that was eliminated. Sometimes the oil thrower was incorporated into the "seal" spacer ring. I couldn't find this version part in the parts books, was it an aftermarket part. Who knows, but I have two in hand. The currently available spacer ring is used without oil thrower.  Yesterday I was fitting this ring when I realized that the sprocket key extended forward from the sprocket. The new ring had to be notched for the key. None of these things are a big problem. The biggest problem right now is that oil pumps aren't available as far as I know. I'm thinking of working up a complete solution using a 220 S pump, but new parts will have to be machined.

Offline Scott Montoney

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  • 1952 - 220 Cab B
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  • VIN #: 187.013.04370/52
  • Year_Model: '52 220 Cab B
Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2017, 01:02:46 PM »
Several years ago, when I was addressing oil leaks and resealed the oil pan, I also replaced the front crank oil seal.
My crank does still have the oil slinger.  I also replaced the front spacer and ran into the same issue with the sprocket key.  I took it to a machine shop to have it modified to clear the key.  Always something to make the project "interesting".
"Gertrude" a.k.a. "Troidl"
1952 - 220 Cabriolet B

Offline Scott Montoney

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  • Year_Model: '52 220 Cab B
Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2017, 08:34:19 AM »
The additional challenge for me is that I don't know exactly what other changes may have been made by previous mechanics the 55 years prior to my maintenance that started in 2007.
I have records that go back to '63, but even those just list the general work that was done.  They don't got into details that I would like to know.
Maybe I occasionally ask some questions that appear to be irrelevant or obvious, but my only Mercedes-Benz exposure is this specific car, and another '52 220 sedan.
So, all I can go by is to see what I have now, look up what was published in the early years from parts listings and shop manuals, and learn from those that have more experience. 
I greatly appreciate the insight this forum has offered!!
Thank you to all.
"Gertrude" a.k.a. "Troidl"
1952 - 220 Cabriolet B

Offline twigren

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Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2017, 04:00:16 PM »
Scott,
Very interesting to follow your new challenges! Learning alot fromyou guys :)
Wish you all the best and good luck with the engine renovation!
Thomas Wigren
Mercedes-Benz 170S, 1951

Offline Scott Montoney

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  • 1952 - 220 Cab B
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  • Location: Mason,Ohio USA
  • VIN #: 187.013.04370/52
  • Year_Model: '52 220 Cab B
Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2017, 08:31:51 PM »
Here is an update.  I'm still taking things apart and cleaning them up enough to be able to evaluate the condition.
I discovered an issue that I created about 8-9 years ago when I had the head rebuilt.  I don't think that it was a serious problem, but this story may help someone else avoid my mistake.
I had ordered all the new parts for the head rebuild and gave them to the machine shop.
Valves, guides, springs, rocker arms, etc.
Now, this was when I was new to the world of classic MB.  The Workshop Manual I have was printed in '55.  The parts manual was printed in '52.
The Shop manual talks about the possibility of cast iron or aluminum heads and that the cam shaft is different.  I have the "newer aluminum head and the correct cam shaft.  What I didn't realize is that the valve springs are also different for the two heads.  The shop manual says the springs for the newer aluminum head can also be used for the older cast iron head, but not the other way around.  I ordered valve springs from my 220 parts manual and didn't realize I had ordered the old style springs and had them installed in the newer head.  That probably explains why I found some extra shims (not part of the normal configuration),under the springs to help compensate for the differences.  Anyway, I will make sure that is corrected this time round. 
"Gertrude" a.k.a. "Troidl"
1952 - 220 Cabriolet B

Offline Scott Montoney

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  • VIN #: 187.013.04370/52
  • Year_Model: '52 220 Cab B
Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2017, 09:43:07 PM »
I thought I might mention a little side note here.
I don't speak or read German very well, and my parts manual is printed in German.
Fortunately, there are pictures and diagrams to assist in identifying parts, but there are times I do need to read more of the description.
I was using a German-English translator and typing in the text.  Functional, but time consuming.
Then I came across the application for my smart phone called "Google Translate".
What I like is that it also has a photographic mode where all I have to do is hold the camera over the word(s) and as soon as it recognizes the word, it changes the picture display to the English translated word.  Very quick and easy!
Sometimes, with long, compounded words, it will not translate them.  If I just cover up the first word and then the second, it will understand each as individual words.
Just a little something I found that helps me translate German to English.
Scott
"Gertrude" a.k.a. "Troidl"
1952 - 220 Cabriolet B

Offline Scott Montoney

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  • VIN #: 187.013.04370/52
  • Year_Model: '52 220 Cab B
Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2017, 08:42:35 AM »
Here is a new series of questions. . . . . .

Once I get my engine to the mechanic for rebuilding, I will have some time to clean up other things under the hood now that I have better access.
At the same time, I want to correct some things.
This car will never be a "High-end" Concours show car, but I do make an effort to keep her in very good shape and reasonably original.
The questions today are in regard to component painting and plating.
 
From what I understand, as a general rule, cast iron parts are painted. Aluminum parts are left natural color.  Some metal hardware is plated "Gold Cadmium?" and others are a "Silvery Cadmium??". 
Many bolts, washers, and nuts are black oxide. (in fact, many look more like a dark grey instead of black)

Some parts I have specific questions about are:
- Engine Block
- Aluminum Head
- Aluminum Valve cover
- Aluminum Oil Pan
- Clutch Housing
- Transmission body and covers
- Starter motor assembly
- Generator Motor and brackets

- Sparkplug Wire "tube" that is mounted along the head.
- Ignition coil body
- Ignition coil mounting bracket
- the cast metal "yokes" for shifting gears that mount on the steering column.
- Windscreen wiper motor and mounting brackets
- The four metal latches on the air cleaner for the carburetor.

These are the items that come to mind right now.  I'm sure there will be others.
Thank you for any information.

"Gertrude" a.k.a. "Troidl"
1952 - 220 Cabriolet B

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2017, 10:02:56 AM »
Light metal parts are not painted with a few exceptions. I've seen factory photos with painted transmission covers, but not sure if I've ever seen evidence of paint on covers. Steel castings are painted. Most standard hardware is black (black zinc phosphate is a good choice over black oxide). Vehicle specific hardware is iron phosphate, the parts that look grey/brown. Not all platers do this now. There is no zinc chromate (gold) in these cars. There is nothing wrong with plating parts with black zinc phosphate prior to painting, for extra protection, especially if the part has some exposed threads, or a rubbing surface where paint may rub through. I'm thinking suspension parts, hood and trunk stays, various brackets etc that were painted.

The silver colors are either cadmium or zinc, sometimes hard to tell which over time. Outside supplied parts from Bosch and Solex may vary from the black hardware rule, Bosch small hardware can be cadmium plated, like the coil strap and terminal screws. Carb and fuel pump hardware is almost all bright, probably cadmium originally. The air cleaner latch hooks I think are black and the wire clips are bright. Practically speaking, given the cost of cadmium as well as minimum charges for each process, it's hard to justify doing cad on the bright hardware except on the most fussy restorations. The zinc looks fine.

As for painted parts, (trans case, motor mounts, starter, generator, ignition wire tube, gear shift bearing body) semi-gloss is appropriate although I do engine blocks in gloss as I think it holds up better. Side covers are painted also. On the wiper motors, we are using a grey/silver paint on the steel, and leaving the zinc parts natural.

Offline Scott Montoney

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  • 1952 - 220 Cab B
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  • Interior color: Red
  • Location: Mason,Ohio USA
  • VIN #: 187.013.04370/52
  • Year_Model: '52 220 Cab B
Re: 220 Engine Rebuild
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2017, 12:47:15 PM »
Thanks for the information. 
I had a "Professional MB Judge", tell me that the plug wire tube was supposed to be yellow (Zinc Chromate) plated.
Mine just looks to be bare metal.  No clear evidence of paint or plaiting.  Maybe it was plated on later cars like the 220S?
I've had several judges over the years that clearly didn't know the finer details of this model car.

Regarding the ignition coil itself.  I have one that is painted black, and one that is blue with Bosch stickers on it.
Is the black one the correct one?  Are they electrically different as far a capacity/power?  They are both 6v.
"Gertrude" a.k.a. "Troidl"
1952 - 220 Cabriolet B