170220 FORUM

Production Variants => 220 => Topic started by: yan2947 on December 05, 2013, 10:53:19 PM

Title: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 05, 2013, 10:53:19 PM
Finally joined this site today. I have been restoring a 1952 220 Sedan for years! I am a little slow in the restoration process. A friend has been doing the recent work (past 5 years at least). I am the third owner of the car. A doctor in my town bought the car new in Germany in '52 and had it shipped to the US. A close friend of the family bought the car from him and last registered it in 1972. I bought the car in high school, 1982 or so. Had to clean out the family friend's backyard and give him $600. I had the car painted in the early 1990's but it ran terrible and finally put it in a barn for several years. It ended up needing sill plates so I decided to really take the car apart and rebuild it. The engine will be the last step.

The two photos here are from when I originally started sanding the car down in the 1980's prior to having it painted.

I originally started the build online at:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/vintage-mercedes-benz/1825769-1952-220-sedan-w187-build.html

but thought this was a much better place to show the build and get expert help and or hard to find parts that someone may have laying around...

Anyhow, thank you to the host for creating this site and allowing me to post some photos
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 05, 2013, 10:59:16 PM
Some photos from 2004 before taking the car apart. The car had been painted around 1991. This is the second and final attempt! The car had been bought originally in black with a red interior. The doctor painted it white upon arriving back in New York. I had seen a car that was two tone like this and had it painted these colors. It will now be done in the original black.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on December 05, 2013, 11:04:49 PM
Though the originals were not painted in two tone combinations, I do like the look!  Welcome to the group
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 05, 2013, 11:09:08 PM
Thanks John.  I will be turning it back to one color.  My goal is:

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 05, 2013, 11:20:40 PM
Taking the car apart a few years ago and then putting in the new sills.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 05, 2013, 11:41:45 PM
The amazing mechanic, Peter, restoring my 220!

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 05, 2013, 11:48:45 PM
Here are some photos from 2013 as the car has progressed.  The frame was sandblasted and powder coated.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 05, 2013, 11:56:52 PM
Starting to put it back together:
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 06, 2013, 12:08:02 AM
The car is coming along.  The frame will attach to the body this week or next...  Hopefully.  The motor will be rebuilt at some point.  Some of my red leather needs to be re-done.  Not sure if anyone has any similar leather sitting around.  I will need a new headliner. 

I have a parts manual called:  Mercedes-Benz Type 220 CATALOG A 1952.  It has all of the parts (diagrams) in tables with two digit numbers which are supposed to correlate to the actual Mercedes part numbers.  I do not have the actual corresponding part numbers.  Does anyone have this?

thanks in advance,

Yan
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on December 06, 2013, 08:58:36 AM
Yes.  The parts manual is in German, but the numbers are still valid or can at least cross-referenced.
I thought I had scanned it at one time and placed on this web site, but we had some problems in the past and maybe it is "lost".
I'll see what we can work out.
If need be, I can copy and mail it to you.

UPDATE: John Ellis, I have this as a PDF file but it is about 295M. Can this site handle anything like that?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 06, 2013, 11:58:45 AM
Scott, that would be great if you can see if you still have the manual.  I think there are a lot of lost links with manuals online.  Some are there and some are not.  If you can put it back up even if it is in German that would be great!  If not and you need to mail it let me know and I will email you my address.  My email is yansalomon@aol.com

thanks again,

Yan
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on December 06, 2013, 08:53:13 PM
I need to check on a few things to see if I am able to upload the PDF.  In the mean time, I have sent you a note and we'll work out getting you a copy the good old-fashioned way.
By the way, I don't believe the parts manual was ever published in English.  However the shop manual was.  Do you have that?
There is also an online version of the parts manual that you can register to use through MB.  Check the "General Discussion" section, third post from top in that section.
Here is the link if I did it correctly: http://www.170220.org/index.php?topic=2675.0
Scott
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on December 09, 2013, 11:02:50 AM
The part manual is now available from our section of manuals.

Here is the direct link as well. It is large (290MB), so it may take a while to fully open the almost 500 pages. 

http://www.170220.org/pdf/MB_220_PartsBook-rev5.pdf
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 09, 2013, 12:26:53 PM
Scott,

that is exactly what I needed!  Thank you so much for doing that!  Now it is time to hunt down some parts.  I realize quite a few places have parts for the car but sometimes I get luck on ebay when someone only has a part number and is selling a NOS part, not knowing what it is!

Yan!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 09, 2013, 06:44:41 PM
Scott, have you used this Germany based eBay store?  Seems reasonable on some items I just ordered.

http://stores.ebay.com/Automobilia-Versand/Mercedes-170-220-/_i.html?_fsub=207563019&_sid=279584949&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

Thanks again!  The part numbers came in handy! 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: CraigS on December 10, 2013, 04:48:03 AM
I recently put up a post looking for a 170s parts manual. Is that in your inventory as well ?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on December 10, 2013, 07:10:30 AM
Scott, have you used this Germany based eBay store?  Seems reasonable on some items I just ordered.
http://stores.ebay.com/Automobilia-Versand/Mercedes-170-220-/_i.html?_fsub=207563019&_sid=279584949&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
I have not personally, but I believe other have with good results.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on December 10, 2013, 07:14:24 AM
I recently put up a post looking for a 170s parts manual. Is that in your inventory as well ?

No sir.  That is something I do not have.
Scott
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: CraigS on December 10, 2013, 04:26:17 PM
That's OK. A friend is sending me his to copy, so when I do, I will put it up as a PDF.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Azryael on December 10, 2013, 11:35:59 PM
That's OK. A friend is sending me his to copy, so when I do, I will put it up as a PDF.

I'll be interested in this as well, Craig.

Your restoration is a lot further along than mine. I'll be doing the interior completely by hand (not wanting to pay for sandblasting or powdercoating, as shops around here don't exactly have the best reputation).
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 29, 2013, 04:19:09 PM
Some progress this week:

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 29, 2013, 04:20:24 PM
some more:


Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 06, 2014, 09:02:59 PM
The front and rear springs are now on.  Emergency brake release being cleaned up.

Does anyone have an extra fuel tank sending unit/float 6volt for sale?  I will start looking for a NOS one or a good used one if possible... 

Please chime in with any thoughts on who may have one

thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Charles Adamson on January 07, 2014, 12:40:23 AM
There is a man in CA named Bob Gunthorp who has some old parts for sale. I bought from him before.
His Email is badwrench7@cox.net
He usually posts on the ponton site.

Charles








Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on January 07, 2014, 07:32:35 AM
Are you missing it all together, or is it just in need of repair?
When I was having my gauges restored by Palo Alto Speedometer, the question came up regarding calibration of the fuel gauge.
In my case I was able to repair my sending unit and do my own calibration but he did mention that they have some options available.  I believe one of those involved using a newer style sending unit, but you'd have to get details from them if you want to go that route.  Somewhere in the past, my float had been altered.  I believe the original floats were cork, but mine is now plastic.  I'm not too concerned about items like that which are not visible at all and increase reliability.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 07, 2014, 11:31:57 AM
Charles, just checked with Bob but he has no 52 220 parts.  Scott, I think I still have it but it was pretty rusty as I remember.  I had the gas tank cleaned out a couple of times and it had sat in the car for years before the float was removed and pretty much was dead.  I think there might be some chasis in Germany on ebay and I seem to remember the tank still intact so perhaps they may part...  I will have to send an email.  I have a few emails out to some of the german parts places and ebayers but so far nothing. 

thanks for the help!

Yan
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on January 07, 2014, 01:20:51 PM
It's just a simple, wire wound rheostat.  I think it reads about 1-10 ohm when at the empty range and around 135-140 at full.  I tweaked mine so that it read "empty" at the point the shorter pickup tube stopped.  That way, I was more comfortable that I had "reserve" if I needed to switch the flow lever. I thought I had taken some pictures of the inside of mine, but all I found were shots of it when I was adjusting the calibration.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 07, 2014, 08:06:27 PM
Scott, thanks and great photos!  I am looking for my float and hopefully will find it.  I took some photos of part of my dash where the radio normally goes.  I have a sun tach there.  I would assume this is not factory?  Any thoughts?



Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on January 07, 2014, 09:35:25 PM
Not factory .... no such option,  but that is really an old Sun tachometer.  It is called the football tach due to the red emblem on the face.  It was made in 1950's to early 1960's era and is worth somewhere between $200>300.  Sun was "the" tach for race cars, muscle cars and hot rodders.  Retro and popular now for rat rods.

Do you have the transmitter also?  It would be specific to the voltage and number of cylinders.

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 07, 2014, 10:46:22 PM
Ellis, I do have it in a box with rest of my parts.    It had always been installed but I never had it working.  Once the motor is rebuilt I will try and get it working or see if the hole in the wood dash will fit a radio.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: braveman170 on January 08, 2014, 12:17:05 AM
Hi,

If you are interested I have this dash part for sale.


Lars
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on January 08, 2014, 02:27:17 AM
Yan2947 .... your wood trim was a blank before drilled for the Sun tachometer.  You will probably want another blank or fit for a radio like Lars has offered.  The original radios can be quite expensive .... up to $1,000 US.

Lars ... is your blank for a Becker Monaco?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 08, 2014, 06:52:20 AM
Thanks for the photos and offer.  Still quite away from interior install but will keep all in mind.

Thank you
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on January 08, 2014, 06:59:22 PM
The fuel tank level sender is MB part no. 1815420004.  It is available from mercedes new and the best price I could find is from the following vendor:

http://www.parts.com/parts/index.cfm?make=Mercedes-Benz&year=&searchText=1815420004&action=oePartSearch&siteid=2 (http://www.parts.com/parts/index.cfm?make=Mercedes-Benz&year=&searchText=1815420004&action=oePartSearch&siteid=2)

I have no experience with the Parts.com store so can't endorse their reputation.  Here is a MB on-line dealer with the same part for a few dollars more.

https://www.getmercedesparts.com/oem-Mercedes-parts.html (https://www.getmercedesparts.com/oem-Mercedes-parts.html)
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 08, 2014, 07:13:10 PM
John,  what is the difference in the parts manual from the part number you gave just under part 7 of table 34 in group 47 and part 8  1875420104?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on January 09, 2014, 08:19:26 AM
If I read it correctly, one is for the early cars that had a 48 liter tank, the other is for cars starting with 01017/52 that have a 65 liter tank.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 09, 2014, 10:32:12 AM
Scott, so my vin is 1870110858352  which means serial number 8583/52?  So I would be the second part, 1875420104?  Would it be correct that either would work if I can get my hands on one and it can be changed to work in some way?  Both would be 6 volt?  I have an email out to classic parts to see if they have either.  I will try the other people that John suggested as well.

thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on January 09, 2014, 06:01:55 PM
I hope others can confirm or correct, but that is my understanding.
My guess is that the main difference in the two is probably the length of the float arm. But that is pure speculation.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 09, 2014, 07:25:26 PM
I think you are right.  Mercedes is out of both.  None on eBay but I will keep looking.  There are a few 6 volt ones on eBay that I am sure will work with some adjustments.  I had the tank dipped a couple of times in the 80's and it looks like it could be done again.  I would rather split it open and sand blast it and powder coat in and out, then weld it back.  Any thoughts on that?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on January 09, 2014, 09:44:15 PM
Yes.  My tank was done by "Gas Tank Renu" in 1999.  They were in Detroit, MI.  I believe they split the tank open and coat it inside.
I'm sure there are others as well.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on January 10, 2014, 09:48:31 AM
The tank places don't usually split the tank open. They have special sandblast nozzles to get inside. There are some more or less universal VDO tank senders but they require some fiddling around to get the travel and lower and upper height correct. There was a version that the sender was slightly larger than the hole in the tank. I don't remember whether I enlarged the hole or found another solution. If you can get an original to work, it's worth a little effort.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 10, 2014, 11:53:01 AM
I will keep looking for mine.  It  must be in a box somewhere.  Thanks for all the help.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 10, 2014, 04:46:26 PM
The eagle has landed.  Body is now bolted to frame.   :)

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 24, 2014, 03:12:24 PM
The tires are back on the car!  Steering column is going in next and then the car will be very mobile.  The gas tank was re-done and sealed. Still looking for a 6volt float in case anyone finds one sitting around...

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 24, 2014, 04:39:45 PM
Here is what I have for carpet and mats.  Where should I get these items from?  Any help would be appreciated.  Are they custom made or does someone manufacture them.  I think I am missing one piece of carpet.  Please correct me.  thanks!

Yan

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 24, 2014, 04:50:54 PM
The old carpet...
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 24, 2014, 05:03:57 PM
Has anyone ever seen seat belts in a 52 220?  My car was purchased by a Doctor in my home town so I am assuming that he had them installed and I won't need them in the rebuild?  Let me know what you think.  I also realize as I posted previously that my Sun Tach is not stock.  I would also assume that the same doctor got the car with a radio delete option!  Does anyone have a wood panel without the radio slot cut out?

thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 24, 2014, 05:14:54 PM
The only torn seat.  The other front and rear are just old and hard leather!

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on February 24, 2014, 08:22:20 PM
Seats belts were added by the previous owner.  The seat belts are actually for airplanes, so this owner was an early adopter of safety.

The radio delete blanks are regularly available on eBay .... looked but did not see any available right now.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 25, 2014, 06:11:24 AM
Thanks john.  I thought they were aviation belts.  Has anyone ever had luck softening the leather  in these cars or should I re-do all the seats.  The rear bench, passenger seat and all panels are fine.  The drivers seat is the only one with damage.  Options?  Suggestions? 

Looking for radio delete panel
Looking for fuel float
Looking for windshield front/back rubber

I see the rubber front mats on some sights but what about the minimal carpet set for this car?

Thanks again and hope for some more answers
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on February 25, 2014, 11:04:30 AM
The mats have been available in the past. I think I bought a set from Niemoeller, but quite a while ago.

It's worth trying to soften up the leather since so much is intact. You might be able to replace the damaged piece of leather but I'd work on softening the rest first. You will need to convince the trimmer it's worth saving the old leather, to get him to buy into the repair. A lot of trimmers won't want to stitch on the old leather. They probably will have to do it by hand to the original stitch holes. You can re-dye the leather if there is a lot of color variation. My trimmer re-stiched the pleats on a 190 SL, but it was a low milage car.

It's very unusual to have leather in these cars, I've only known of two others. The contrasting piping is a nice touch.

The carpet any good trimmer should be able to make up and bind. It's best to double check the pattern in case it has shrunk. That is square weave not velour as you probably know.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on February 25, 2014, 11:22:06 AM
On the rubber, again, suppliers like Niemoeller have the stuff. I have used the rear window gasket for ponton sedans for the front windshield, it's very close. The outermost flap of rubber may be a slightly smaller dimension than the original and you can have a problem with the corners of the flap falling in, but some sealer underneath can solve this problem. I may have one of these but it would be NOS of uncertain age. The advantage is it's still available from MB and it's OE rubber.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 25, 2014, 07:01:33 PM
A few years ago I purchased the rubber for the front and rear windows directly from MB through my local MB Dealership.
I also bought the right floor mat from Niemoeller. Yes, it was more expensive than I had hoped.  But the old one was in pieces.  The left side and center hump rubber is still serviceable.
Regarding the leather.  One company to research is
http://www.leatherique.com/
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 25, 2014, 08:02:31 PM
Henry and Scott - thanks for the info.  I just emailed niemoeller for some of the rubber mats to see what they have along with the front and rear windshield rubber.  I am assuming what they are selling for the W187 is the correct rubber.  I am going to show the interior guy the seats on Monday to see what he thinks.  I have used the Leatherique on my '89 911.  I can certainly give it a try.  It won't come out like a baseball glove but it probably is worth an attempt.  I didn't realize not too many of these cars had the leather.  I am sure that if I only re-upholstered one seat there would be a matching problem.  Waiting to hear back...
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 26, 2014, 07:57:40 AM
Here are two photos of the mat I got from Niemoller.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on February 26, 2014, 11:49:18 AM
If the trimmer can't replace just the one piece of leather, and you need to re-upolster, one option is to do both front seats in new leather, them match the dye to the new leather. I think if you do one seat only it would stand out.

You probably can get GAHH to do the seats. They may need the patterns because this pleat size is a bit wider than other models. I would get leather samples from them because I'm not sure about what they are using, level of shine, grain etc.  If these things are important to you, you have to pay attention to it.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 27, 2014, 10:20:21 AM
Just a quick note and looking for your thoughts.  I just heard back from Niemoller in Germany.  They quoted me a price of 736.20 Euro plus VAT plus shipping on the carpet set for the car.  I don't have great photos of my cars carpet prior to taking the car apart.  From the photos I posted above it is apparent to me that the only carpet is in the rear of the car.  There must have been to rear seat carpets and 2 mats? along with the two trim pieces around the rear bench seat?  Does that sounds correct.  The front of the car has no carpet and only mats?  They needed my chasis number and engine number to order the carpet.  Is there are record of what carpet I had in the car when it was manufactured?  A couple of months back I was able to get the build Zertificate... but it was not legible.  Mercedces said they could tell the car was black and knew the tire size but that was it.  Perhaps Niemoller has accesss to a better copy?  Any thoughts would be appreciated.  Is the price fair for the limited carpet?

Yan
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on February 27, 2014, 12:48:24 PM
FYI, if you want a legible copy of the build sheet you will need to order one of Mercedes "birth certificates". They run about $125 and somehow magically come up with all the information. I did this for both my '52's, both had illegible build sheets. The "birth certificates" had everything. Stephen
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 27, 2014, 01:23:49 PM
I was told by mercedes classic cars that the program was discontinued.  Any other way to get a "birth certificate"?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on February 27, 2014, 02:04:24 PM
That's too bad if it was, as although a little costly, it was the only way I was able to obtain the information. Why don't you scan and post what you have and maybe someone can decifer the illegible parts. As far as cost for the mats, well it is just a matter of how bad you want them. I was able to find a similar ribbed rubber product, cut from a pattern i received from another member. In order to get the flat border on the edges, I used my Dremel to grind down the ridges to create a 3/4" flat border. It certainly not show car quality but for about $30 and a few hours of my time, I made front and rear rubber mats. I'm saving my money so I can finish my '52 300 cabriolet.  Stephen
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: CraigS on February 27, 2014, 04:59:59 PM
Is the floor pan the same as a 170 ? If so, you could use a 170 rubber set, like this

http://www.ebay.de/itm/MERCEDES-170S-SD-SV-Gummimattensatz-/161230531040?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item258a16a9e0
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 27, 2014, 06:41:52 PM
Here is my data card.  It is so poor. If anyone can read anything please let me know.  I am going to email Niemöller and see why they wanted my chassis number and engine number to be able to tell me what carpet I needed.  They must be able to look something up right?

Craig, those mates are the same or almost perfect and will fit.  I have seen someone other ones that were slightly different.  There must be a couple companies producing them.  Niemöller only has the center one and it is more like mine.  Not sure why the tranny tunnel one has the circle on it but perhaps it was stick on the floor.  My car is stick on the column.  Other then the circle thing it is correct and the package deal is cheaper then other ones I have seen.  Perhaps I can put a cup holder there...  Any thoughts guys before I order that set on ebay.  Tell me what you think about my data card.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 27, 2014, 10:21:37 PM
I started to clean these up with Leatherique.   One seat is very presentable with some softening but the other one - not as much but we shall see...

Also, the seats have the numbers 6156 written on many parts of both seats.  I would think that should be a build code somewhere.  Is there a place to look up that number?

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on February 28, 2014, 12:04:50 PM
The tunnel on the 170 S with floor shift is definitely a different shape and height. You need the 220 set. On the carpets, that seems a bit high a price although the square weave by the yard is not cheap. You only have five pieces, the sills, the two snap in mats and the tunnel. Your carpet looks original.  Your trimmer should be able to do the carpet. It looks like the binding is what is called French binding, folded over with blind stitching. I believe that the leather binding is correct since the car had leather interior. If the interior were cloth, the carpets would be bound with cloth.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 28, 2014, 01:05:40 PM
Henry,

Niemoller quoted 736euro.  Worlduph quoted around 870 US dollars.  I was thinking that
Niemoller would be more correct.  I think it is  4 piece carpet plus the two sills all for the back of the car?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 28, 2014, 02:21:49 PM
For what it's worth. . . .
My Cab B has a few extra carpet pieces.  It is not original, but was replaced by the factory back around 1963.
These extra pieces may be unique to the Cab B vs. the Sedan.  I also have some carpet on the side of the front seat pedestals and also the front of the rear seat, as seen in the attached photo.  There is one other piece that sits on the "shelf" behind the rear seat below the rear window.  Again, those may be unique to the Cab B.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 28, 2014, 02:54:34 PM
Scott,

Thanks.  I thought I was missing a piece.  I have both rear pieces and the center tunnel along with the 2  thin sill pieces. 

Craig, that front rubber mat piece for the tunnel on eBay wasn't correct but the person in Poland, I think, may have another set.  Waiting...
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 01, 2014, 06:34:41 AM
Just ordered the complete 220 W187 rubber mat set from Germany for 239Euro plus 35Euro shipping.  $388.29 in US.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/161237639391?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649#payCntId

Not sure how long the link will stay here but thanks for the help!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 01, 2014, 11:59:46 AM
That's a very good price. I wonder if he has stock of these or just one set. When I was counting the pieces of the carpet set I forgot about the seat riser piece. I don't think anything covered the front riser on the sedan but I guess the rear was covered.

I think the shelf behind the seat usually had headliner material on it.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 01, 2014, 12:13:18 PM
Henry,  I think he must have stock.  I emailed him because the 220 center tunnel piece was not on eBay.  He emailed me back that he had it.  His English was limited.  He did say shipping was 30 to 60 days but he had 100% feedback.  My front was always bare on the riser but had the two skirts in the back with the three pieces of carpet.  I seem to remember  a thick pad somewhere.  Was anything under the carpet?  Also, I never had anything in the trunk but I remember snaps.  What goes in there?  Any photos?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 01, 2014, 02:06:32 PM
I could live with the leather especially if I can soften it up.  Having all original seats must count for something or would you all replace?  Only really one hole but the springs are a little soft.  Is it easy to take the leather off and repair the guts?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 02, 2014, 05:46:58 PM
You can repair the springs, but you would need to be careful taking the covers off. Have you asked your trimmer about all of this? As I said before, if you are asking him to work with the old materials, he needs to appreciate that you are trying to save the leather for its originality, not so much to save money. You will save money on the door panels and rear seat if you can do it yourself. The front seats I would think are an open question on cost if you have the trimmer remover the covers without doing damage, and repair the piece with the hole. Buying covers from GAHH is pretty reasonable and the trimmer doesn't have to be so careful so the installation will go faster I think. One thing that won't change with either option is the spring and padding work.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 02, 2014, 06:22:14 PM
Henry,  I will meet the trimmer tomorrow morning.  Are you saying that either way they will have to change the springs and padding?   I was assuming that part needed to be changed on the front seats.  When you say covers from  GAHH do you mean leather duplicate seat covers?  What cost have you seen?

I will be following your recommendation tomorrow. 

I cleaned up  all the seats, door panels and the leather on the post between the seats.  It's all loaded in my car.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 03, 2014, 05:35:07 PM
I met up with two different trimmers today.  One was very experienced in old Mercedes restorations and he was willing to take the seats apart.  He was willing to replace the lower panel on the front seats and change the black piping.  He had two 60's Mercedes convertibles in the shop and I got to see his custom work.   

I have to take the door chrome off where the windows are and realize that the felt must come off first.  One piece of felt broke off and then I realize that the felt was screwed in place.  Is there a place to get new felt or do you just get it by the yard/meter and form it?  Do you also screw it in?  Or...  Should I really try and save the old stuff.

The classic center had the felt for $65 per meter and you need 4 meters times 4!!!

I found some people talking about Restoration Specialties in PA.  Page 8 of their pdf catalog.  Item 8-A-2 96" length for $36.50. Anyone ever use it?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 05, 2014, 03:54:51 PM
I'm not visualizing the felt you are referring to.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 05, 2014, 04:37:25 PM
Scott,

it is the window track/guide/channel felt.  It is what the 4 windows that crank up and down rest in and help keep water out.  I ordered a sample of this stuff from the link above from Restoration specialties.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on March 05, 2014, 08:19:43 PM
That should work .... the glass is 5mm thick so between 3/16" & 1/4".  The outside measurements are nearly the same as the original channel.   Let us know how it works!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 06, 2014, 11:30:44 AM
It sounds like the trimmer you found with MB experience is your man. That window run channel from MB has gotten a lot more expensive. I used to order that under a 115 part number so it was hardly exclusive to these cars. Does it really take 4 meters per door? That sounds like too much. I'd be looking closely at the Restorations Specialties substitutes myself.

On the springs, the trimmer should know what to do. They can repair sprigs individually, or add springs. They have to see what is wrong. Various things can be broken, springs, the edge wire, where the springs attach to the frame. The frames can be cracked too.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 06, 2014, 11:58:27 AM
The classic center advised that each door takes 3.5 meters which does seem crazy.  I will be taking it out and measuring.m waiting for my sample from restoration specialties.  The trimmer is old school so I am excited.  If he can repair then I will go that route and will know when he opens it all up.  Having new leather is also a nice thought but I will decide  once everything is open.  Not sure how much effort should be made into saving the seats.  The difference in cost from savings to new is not huge.  What would you do?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 06, 2014, 12:19:03 PM
I didn't answer your question about costs on GAHH. I think at retail, two front seats might be about 15-1800. Maybe you need to get the price from the trimmer. It's pretty hard for a trimmer to custom sew the same covers and be competitive, BUT a really good trimmer with Mercedes knowledge may get some fine details better. I would definitely send them the old covers if you go this route. I wouldn't trust them to have the patterns even if they say they do. They may not be sure what sample their pattern was generated from. They probably have not made many 220 sedan seats. I'd ask about what they are using for pleat stuffing, or have your trimmer do this if is is getting them. Try to get a leather sample that is larger than the tiny squares they have in their sample book. You may not like the leather they are using. I think you have the option of supplying the leather, but I'm not sure.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: CraigS on March 06, 2014, 04:59:21 PM
You will find that the new leather is nothing like the old leather. The old leather is hard and shiny - the new soft and matt. If the old leather can be saved, that is the way I would go. It is very easy to tell the difference between the two.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 06, 2014, 05:47:25 PM
Is it of everyone's opinion here that if possible to save the old seat even if they are not perfect and perhaps just putting new skirts on the bottom of the two front seats to match, replacing the black piping with new black piping?  I would assume that with new skirts the skirts would be soft where as the rest of the seats would be original leather.  When the leather that was new on this car in 1952 was it soft and similar to what may go on the car now or was it always hard and shinny back then?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 06, 2014, 08:52:10 PM
Old vs. New Leather. . . . . Some thoughts of my own and comments from some judges.

Bottom line, everyone has their own different opinion, but here are some things to consider.
What is the intent of the outcome of this restoration?  Is it to be a show car only?  What kinds of shows?  Concours d'Elegance, or local fun shows with an occasional MB event thrown in?  Will you be driving it for your own pleasure?
Unless the old leather gets some degree of softness restored, I'd be concerned how well it would hold up if the family was climbing in/out of it a few days a week all summer long.  New leather may hold up better?
I've had judges at Concours shows tell me that the original leather is best, but only up to a point. When it reaches the point of it having holes, tears, or big worn spots where the top smooth surface is worn away, then it should be replaced.  Again, personal preference.  My seats are soft and in reasonable condition (replaced once already in years past), but my side door panels are still original and worn to a point in several areas, that they should probably be replaced.  My problem is that I feel that it might look too odd to replace the sides and not do the seats as well.  Again, my personal opinion.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 08, 2014, 06:02:59 PM
Car parts are headed out to be painted.  The plan is black.  I am planning on black like the picture on the first page of this build.  No more silver.  I am open to thoughts on this since I am trying to keep things mostly original.  I thought paint didn't overly matter but perhaps it does.  Here are some photos of the car parts.  Additionally, there is a plug on one of the fenders as shown in the accompanying photos.  I don't remember why it is there and probably should not be there.  I also remember a chrome Mercedes piece somewhere on the driver's fender near the door perhaps.  I have the piece somewhere but not sure where it goes so please post a photo. 

1.  does the paint matter - thoughts
2.  what is the plug for?  Did my body guy in the 80's/90's mess something up and cover it with a plug and I just don't remember?
3.  Chrome piece somewhere on the fender (driver's side near door?)...
4.  One more question... The rear trunk area under the latch is a little flat.  Is that damage from closing the trunk lid over the years?  The photo may show it.

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 08, 2014, 06:15:22 PM
The chrome on top of the fenders is pitted.  I have seen some cars with lights there.  Obviously mine was the poor mans version without lights but they may be more available.  Does anyone have any better chrome pieces for here?  When were lights added on these cars like what is on the black car on the front page?

What is the color of the dash itself?  It looks like chocolate brown?  Is it so?

And by the way... thanks for all the advise and help so far.

Yan
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 09, 2014, 07:46:32 AM
Others can correct me if I'm wrong.
I can't imagine why there would be a plug in the fender, and I am not aware of any other chrome piece on the fender besides the "spear" on top.

I believe the Cabriolet's had the turn signal light in the front of the spear trim because there was no piller to mount the signal flags as found on the four door sedans.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 09, 2014, 08:12:37 AM
Thanks Scott.  That makes sense about the turn signal.  I can't figure out about the plug at all.  Antenna?  There is one already - probably after market on the passenger side? 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 09, 2014, 04:13:28 PM
I have seen a few photos where a mirror was mounted on the fenders, but that doesn't look like a likely spot for that.
Nothing on the inside of the fender to give a clue?  Who knows. . .
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 09, 2014, 05:42:56 PM
Scott, how about below the trunk handle?  Should there be a flat spot under it or should it maintain a beautiful curve?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 10, 2014, 01:38:48 PM
No flat spots. There may be something going on with the handle that is drawing it down too much and distortion the sheet metal.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 10, 2014, 04:29:43 PM
Henry, thanks.  Also do you know if  the front right fender would have a hole or plug for any reason?  Where did the antenna go?

Thanks,

Yan
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 10, 2014, 04:37:45 PM
Well, it has been decided that the entire interior will be re-done.  The door panels had to be re-done.  There was no way around that.  Skirts could have been put on front seats but I think with the skirts done and panels done it really would not have looked all that great so we decided today to re-do it all.  The photos below are of the seats after being pulled apart.  One question Greg had on working on the seats was the metal area that connected the backrest to the seat cushions.  Mine are painted red.  I would assume that is original.  Is that correct?  Painted?

thanks!

Also, to note, the last photo shows the passenger seat.  It looks almost new.  The horsehair is unspoiled on the passenger seat where as the one on the driver's seat is hard and was obviously sat on. 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 10, 2014, 05:01:45 PM
The steering wheel is in and the car is almost ready to go to the body shop.

Does anyone know of any easy way to take off the doors?  Those screws don't want to move.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 10, 2014, 06:11:12 PM
One question Greg had on working on the seats was the metal area that connected the backrest to the seat cushions.  Mine are painted red.  I would assume that is original.  Is that correct?  Painted?


Mine is Chrome, not painted.  I don't recall seeing anything but chrome in any photos.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 10, 2014, 06:22:11 PM
I have a question.  In the photo you just posted that shows the inside of the driver door. . .
On the horizontal metal that is where the window goes into the door, there is a material that was under the wood trim.  In your photo, part of it is loose and hanging down about where the window crank would be.  Is it rubber?  Or a fabric?  I believe it is rubber.  Would you be able to measure those dimensions for me?  Width and thickness.  I believe that a portion of it extends beyond the wood toward the glass to sort of act as a sweep/seal, but have never seen one in person.  Mine is missing,  but it looks like there had been something there at one time.  From what I see in your photo, that is the mystery piece I was wondering about.
Thanks
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 10, 2014, 06:53:46 PM
Scott, it is felt/fabric.  I will measure it next time I go to the shop.  Probably Monday.  Greg, working on the interior had mentioned he had only seen chrome also but I had seen a car or two with colored brackets.  Mine looks original.  Any other thoughts Henry or craigS?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on March 10, 2014, 08:32:21 PM
As far as getting the screws out for the door hinges, I first heated them with a propane touch I picked up at the local hardware store and then cooled them with water. After that I used an impact screwdriver. I was able to remove all the screws. Stephen
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 10, 2014, 09:30:28 PM
Stephen,  thanks.  That was the plan. 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: CraigS on March 11, 2014, 07:46:09 AM
The bracket between the seat base and upper section should be chrome I think. That is going from the small number of 220's I have seen, but they may have also been refurbished and chromed.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 11, 2014, 09:50:09 AM
I believe they were painted on the sedans. I have seen them painted. and probably have some painted frames in my stuff. As for the material on the doors, there was no sweep of any significance on the inside. The cabriolets may have a strip of rubber tacked to the underside of the wood that sticks out a bit toward the window, I'd have to look. I'm forgetting a lot more than I'm remembering thee days. The felt strip on the sedan is there just to cushion between the wood trim and the door.


That seat in your last picture really looks good. I'd save all the original leather. What was wrong with the door panels?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 11, 2014, 07:11:16 PM
Thanks Henry, I think just about everything was original in this car except the paint, radio and tach.  The seats were completely un-touched.  The panels most have had some moisture and heat and cold because they completely caused the board underneath to shrink and expand.  I had stored the leather in the top of a garage for the past three years.  It got hot and cold.  There were no holes in them.  The boards were shot and Greg, doing the interior, advised they were not fixable unlike the seats which were partially fixable.  He will keep the interior of the passenger seat.  Nothing but new leather there.  I will hold onto all the leather for historical purposes incase someone needs something or some photo, etc.  I hope I am making the right decision with all new leather.  We tried to match a leather that was as close to the hidden parts of the red leather as possible.  My bracket for the front seats was painted red originally I believe.  I have nothing that appears like chrome on there and the original primer/coating like what is on the bottom of the seats is also just under the red.

I have two Solex PAAI carbs.  I had picked up an extra one in the 1980's but one worked better then the other.  Who has the best prices on the rebuild kits or does anyone have an extra?  I might trade one of the carbs for the rebuilding of the better one...

also, notice the metal tab on the last picture with DB 220.  One has that tab and one does not.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 11, 2014, 08:48:46 PM
I wouldn't be too quick to trade out one of those carbs, unless they are both spare.  I had to source a new body at one time.  The four small bolts that hold the pump on the side had a tendency to strip the threads if you aren't careful.  There is somer room to go larger and longer.
Just make sure you have a good working one before you let anything go.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 11, 2014, 09:30:11 PM
Thanks and great advise.  I have started to work on my dash and trying to get the gas sensor/float but in doing so I found that my Kombi instrument cluster (I have the English Kombi part of 187 542 04 01) which is printed on the  visible top of the instrument.  The 187  542 03 01 is metric.  I have no gas guts in my cluster.  Not even a needle.  Anyone have one?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 11, 2014, 09:43:29 PM
And here is my mess.  I really tried to label everything when I took it all apart!

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 11, 2014, 10:03:48 PM
I'm not sure about a kit for that carb. I usually buy individual parts. On the fuel gauge, you may want to check with a gauge place like Palo Alto Speedometer. They may have the movement for the fuel gauge if you have the face. I probably would not disassemble a good cluster to sell one part of it but I'll see if I  have one that already is a "parts" instrument.

Just a suggestion on thread repair on carbs. These can usually be repaired with Helicoils, I think preferable to using a larger size screw.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 11, 2014, 10:24:13 PM
Henry,  thanks for checking.  I am taking the entire dash apart now.  The face needs to be re-painted I believe.  It looks like a dark brown color?  I will add a photo of the bottom of the glove compartment.  Stamped with my body number of 6156.  Everything seems to have that number written on it.  I finally see what the original black color of the car was with this photo.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 11, 2014, 11:08:19 PM
How do I remove these knobs?  I can loosen the part right against the front of the dash but the knob is still there.

And while my 220 mentors are in the mood to give advise...  Is there a source for good electrical wire from this period.  My wire is repairable completely but I will probably need to replace some pieces.  I am sure, if available, the harness would be extremely expensive.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 11, 2014, 11:45:09 PM
Just found this photo of a tan interior with the seat bracket painted tan. 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on March 11, 2014, 11:50:49 PM
The knobs unscrew.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 12, 2014, 12:00:04 AM
I was worried that they might break.  I will give it a shot in the morning.  Thanks!!!!!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 12, 2014, 07:28:30 AM
I tried turning the knob but the whole shaft appears to turn also.  Just the knob unscrews from the shaft?

What is the name of the tool called that fits in the tiny turning holes on the bezel for these switches.  The bezel being the part right up against the dash to hold it firmly to the dash.  I need to get one of those tools.

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on March 12, 2014, 10:27:57 AM
One source for the wiring is "Rhode Island Wiring" www.riwire.com (http://www.riwire.com).  They have period correct cloth coated wiring as well as complete wiring harnesses.

The tools for the dash bezel removal are no longer available.  I  modified some retaining ring pliers to engage the holes and remove the bezels.  You might try this.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 12, 2014, 11:02:27 AM
John, thanks.  I will give them a call.  Have you ever taken the knobs off?  Unscrew?  Any ideas before I break one.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 12, 2014, 09:26:51 PM
Can anyone take off a knob from the dash.  Is there something I am missing?  Thanks.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on March 12, 2014, 10:22:46 PM
As I recall, I used a small pair of needle nose pilars to secure the shaft and then unscrewed the knobs.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Charles Adamson on March 12, 2014, 11:09:41 PM
Here is a picture of the rosetta wrench used to remove the knobs.

Charles Adamson
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 12, 2014, 11:24:51 PM
Thanks for all the help.  With a little might and some pliers they came off...  and where can one get a Rosseta wrench?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 13, 2014, 07:32:21 AM
Like John mentioned, I too used some cheap snap-ring pliers that I heated and formed to fit the holes in the bezel.
I'll dig it up and take a photo.
I also removed my dash and had it repainted the Tobacco brown. MB423 / Glasurit 22
I have used some of the wire from Rhode Island Wiring and been very happy with it.  Yes, they do have complete harnesses as well.  I believe there are three that cover the entire car (except for modifications that may have been done).
As I took all mine apart, I made notes on my wire schematic and found several things that didn't match,  For example, relays added for the horn ckt, and the fog lights, etc.
Palo Alto Speedometer has done the work on all of my gauges.  Well worth contacting them to discuss options.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 13, 2014, 07:53:54 AM
To continue the discussion of custom tools, there were several others I had to make in order to do the rebuild of the drive-train.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 13, 2014, 01:13:11 PM
Scott,  the tobacco brown you mention is the correct color?  That will make it easy.  I will have to make up a set of pliers too.    I spoke to Rhode Island wiring yesterday and they were great.  I may end up getting the  main harness but the rear looks simple to make.  What is the metal covering called for the rear harness?

Thanks again everyone!


Is there a electrical wire color coded schematic oft the w187?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 13, 2014, 03:01:14 PM
I got that color from Henry.  It was a pretty close match to the old.  Maybe just a slight touch lighter?, but then my dash was old and banged up.
I did make my own rear harness because it is all out of sight anyway.  I didn't use the aluminum clad wrap.  I just encased the harness in shrink tubing.  Now under the hood I did use some of the cloth wrapped wire where it is easily seen.  I still have more to do when I get around to it.
Here is some of the wire I got from RI.

I have color chart for 170S.  Not positive that how much is the same.

Somewhere in my garage is a large printout of the basic schematic for the 220.  On it I made all my hand written notes for colors and modifications. If specific questions, I can probably dig it up and see what I wrote.
It was my plan to "some day" get it all put down in electronic format, in my "spare time"!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 13, 2014, 04:35:58 PM
I will probably do my rear one also.  The front is a little more complicated but I really have to see if mine is salvageable.  It also has to look good since all will be painted.  I took endless photos when I took everything apart so hopefully all will fit together like a nice puzzle. 

How do the knobs on the other switches come off like the distributer advance and lights?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 13, 2014, 09:01:33 PM
The switches are all off.   :)
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 13, 2014, 09:53:57 PM
Scott,

do you know what gauge wire you used for the rear harness?  I am thinking 12 gauge braided?

Also, going over my wires in the rear there are the following 5 wires going to the back:
1.  Parking lights
2   Brake lights
3.  License Plate lights
4.  Gas tank sender
5.  ???  I don't think I had backup lights or a trunk light?  Any ideas???

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on March 14, 2014, 02:27:47 AM
If you look at the chart that Scott posted you will see not only the wire colors but also the wire size.  They are in metric mm2 so here are the conversions to USA gauges.

1.0 mm = 16 AWG
1.5 mm = 14 AWG
2.5 mm = 12 AWG
4.0 mm = 10 AWG
6.0 mm =   8 AWG

So with that, the tail light wiring should be 16 AWG.  14 AWG is what would be required for the headlights.  12 AWG is heavy and is used for high amp loads such as horns and cigar lighters.  The wire color coding is standard for all german cars of that era.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 14, 2014, 06:53:51 AM
Thanks John.  That really made it simple.   Do you know what manual the chart is in?  I have the parts and shop manuals but don't see it.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 14, 2014, 07:48:36 AM
The rear harness is where I deviated from originality.  Since it is mostly all out of sight, I used modern plastic coated wire all encased in a flat black shrink tube where it is routed under the body and exposed to the elements.
I probably used 14g, and possibly one extra 12g.  I did run an extra wire or two that are not connected, but available if I should add something later.

Mine probably had:
parking/running lights, license plate
brake lights
left turn
right turn
gas sending unit
backup/reverse
one or two extra
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 14, 2014, 08:38:56 AM
Scott, can you post a photo of your reverse lights even if it mounted.  I don't think I ever had them but a photo would refresh my memory well.  I certainly don't see any other components for one but somethings may have disappeared over the years.  That would explain the extra wire.

Yan
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 14, 2014, 01:13:04 PM
The reverse light was optional on the Cab B and sedan. I would think hard about the harness. If this were a ponton, which mostly had plastic wire and some cloth wire, I would recommend repairing and re-looming the harness. But these cars were all cloth and really should be re-wired. The finished harness is expensive but RI does a beautiful job, and it will save you a lot of aggravation. It looks like you will have a nice car when done, you might as well have a good harness in it. I can see doing the rear yourself but the main harness, no. If you want to incorporate a circuit for directional signals, RI will build the harness with these things included, you just have to tell them what you want.

It may be possible to just buy the Cab B harness with the directionals in it, but then it wouldn't be set up for the trafficators at all.

If you think you can repair your harness, you can have RI loom the harness. They charge by how many feet it is.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 14, 2014, 01:43:23 PM
Henry, I am going to do the rear because it is so simple.  I plan on buying a new front harness from them.  It will be very visible and everyone seems to like their quality,  I see you can get it all from Germany but RIW seems to have all the details correct and they are less expensive.  All the details are starting to really add up $$$.   😱
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on March 14, 2014, 05:42:48 PM
I have purchased from Rhode Island Wiring for both my 300 and 170 DaOTP. I was extremely satisfied with their products and customer service support. Stephen
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 14, 2014, 08:42:06 PM
My car never had the reverse light, but the wire is there for it if I should decide to add it later.

Henry, yes the cloth wire can get in very bad shape!  This is what I found when I started tracking down a voltage drop to my headlights.

And I agree, a full restoration for show, would warrant the correct wiring.
Mine is just a repair job for reliability.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 15, 2014, 07:51:51 AM
I found these on ebay.  Just was wondering if they are correct for my car. Also, has this website changed yesterday?  No more latest post area?

Are they the correct rings and is it the correct gas sender?  Does anyone have a photo of the top of their sender from the trunk compartment?  This one has markings that make me think possibly from 1957? (2 57)?

thanks
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 15, 2014, 11:00:21 AM
Those look like the correct Euro headlight rings. They are the same as the 220 S, so not so rare, although the logo style may vary over time. The sender is ponton.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 15, 2014, 11:34:53 AM
Henry, so both are incorrect for my car.  The sender will not function correctly?  12v instead of 6v?  The sender is grounded on one side and goes directly to the kombi instrument so does voltage matter or can it be sent to Palo Alto speed and adjusted?

Thank u Henry!


Yan

here is a photo of my headlight ring.  They have some good dents on them.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 15, 2014, 03:20:23 PM
Does anyone have a photo of the top of their sender from the trunk compartment? 

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: CraigS on March 15, 2014, 04:49:22 PM
You may be able to get something like this if you are not concerned about the originality

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC-211-919-051
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 16, 2014, 02:05:13 PM
Thanks for the photo.  Does anyone have a photo of the back of the Kombi instrument with details of the gas side.  I see a used one in Germany for  250 euros.  If I know what I am looking for perhaps I will get lucky on eBay. 

This guy in Germany had what he said was the correct sender and it was listed for 92 euros but when I inquired about it and shipping the price changed to 225 euros and it is aftermarket! 

Here it is:

http://www.tsw-ge.de/angebot_W187_220.htm
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 16, 2014, 02:27:05 PM
Does anyone have a photo of the back of the Kombi instrument with details of the gas side. 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 16, 2014, 02:42:25 PM
Scott, which gets power - yours labeled 6 volt or the +.  I see the ground in the middle but one of the lines goes to the gas tank sender.  Which one?  Thanks again!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 16, 2014, 03:27:52 PM
The "6 Volt" is not associated to that terminal, but rather the whole gauge. I did that when I shipped it off for refurbishing.
That terminal is where the lead from the sender unit goes.
The Ground and "+" are marked as well.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 16, 2014, 05:03:13 PM
I found the wiring diagram   :)

The plus goes to the battery/fuse panel and the area you had labeled 6 volt goes to the sender.  Slowly getting there...

Does anyone sell the fuel filter? 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 16, 2014, 06:11:33 PM
On the headlights, you have the US sealed bean version, as I'm sure you know. Those also are the same as 220 S and 180/190 ponton except the 180b 190 b with the wider grill. So don't do any heroic repairs on the rings, you can find replacements.

That sender price looks expensive. It may be VDO and not aftermarket, that's what the new VDO replacements look like.  On the ponton one with the cast top, it's possible that will fit. I don't know whether the resistance range on a 12 V sender is different from the 6 volt. You may want to check with either Palo Alto or N. Hollywood Speedo and see what they have to offer for senders. You also may want to check with the classic center, MB used to sell replacements that looked like the one from the German site. The problem with these things is that the new ones all look the same and you can't be sure just what they are for. The 220 had a 48 liter tank and later 65 liter. The senders are different. Whatever you get, plan on doing some checking of the travel against the actual height of the tank, as well as the stops.

On your combi instrument, I now recall that the last one of these I had repaired, they were able to replace the movement with a newer style that  better damped the bouncing of the needle typical of the early units. I was using N. Hollywood, but I'm starting to use Palo Alto because of some quality issues with N. Hollywood. If your unit is cosmetically acceptable, it may be cheaper to get it repaired than buying a replacement which also may need repair. I would say that 250 Euro may well be an appropriate price for a used one now.

On the fuel filter/valve, we rebuild these and can replace the mesh on the filter element if necessary.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 17, 2014, 03:26:41 PM
Thanks Henry and Scott.  I just sent the Kombi out to California.  They will put in the guts for the fuel, include a sender for the tank and fix/replace the coolant probe.  Problem solved.  The Kombi in Germany/Ebay went for well over 500Euro. 

A question about the bumpers.  My bumpers were shot years ago.  Plenty of rust and not a good candidate for Chrome.  At the time I had them painted black and if I were not doing the restoration I am doing I would just use them.  I have seen the stainless steel sets from England for about $1300 with bumperettes.  Has anyone had good success with them and what are your thoughts.

:)
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 18, 2014, 12:10:21 PM
I've seen a 220 S set, and it looked good but I can't say I inspected in detail. There has been a lot of discussion on these on the ponton Yahoo group. There is more than one company, and they are made in Vietnam. I'm not sure who is better, maybe they are all the same. It's pretty hard to beat the price. You can by un-chromed steel repros in Germany for more, but then you still need to chrome them.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 18, 2014, 01:30:40 PM
The two I see online seem identical.  One in England and one in France but perhaps the are in Vietnam.  I saw some poor fitting reviews in Samba for one of them but not the w187.  I was hoping someone has a set here.  I will search some more.  Stainless can be an amazing alternative to chrome.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: CraigS on March 18, 2014, 05:52:36 PM
I think the company you are referring to in the UK is the Harrington Group, and yes, they are made in Vietnam. There is at least one other company also making them. I inquired about my 170 and one of the companies had the pattern, the other not. They are cheap - the 2 bumpers and 4 over riders, including lights, were a little over $1,000. As regards poor fitting, I doubt that it would be much different with a set of NOS original ones and suspect that the likely suspect is body damage over the years, rather than the bumpers themselves. A friend sent a set of 220a bumpers for them to replicate and they do look pretty good.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 19, 2014, 05:42:12 PM
I am going to post some photos of my rear bumper.  It is painted black.  It obviously had problems back in the day.  I think some items may have been cut off of it and want to make sure that if I order the stainless bumpers I ask the right questions before ordering so that I receive the bumpers correctly drilled.  In the post following this one I will paste my emails to Group Harrington.  Please chime in with your opinions here.  They matter. 

The bumpers from Group Harrington come with the overriders.  For extra cost you get the "Embellishers" and I assume they need to have drill holes done also which I would prefer if they do it.  The photos that I see look as if the embellishers or license plates without the lights, are wide for European Plates.  When order for US plates are they closer together?  Are there drill holes for our US plates in the bumper or a bracket to hold them.  I don't remember.  What about the reflectors?  They are predrilled just outside of the "Overriders" or bumperettes?  Just want to make sure it is all done correctly.  Any good photos would help if I could email them to Group Harrington before to make sure they are drilled out correctly unless someone has another thought.

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 19, 2014, 06:17:30 PM
As mentioned, these are the emails I received from Group Harrington:

On Mar 18, 2014, at 3:39 AM, "info" <info@groupharrington.com> wrote:

Dear Yan,
Thank you very much for your interest in our products.
The price for a set of Mercedes W187 220 bumpers is GBP 713 (USD 1,169) including shipping to the US.
The complete set consists of front and rear bumpers plus 4 over riders. We do also supply 4 trim embellishers for additional of GBP 40 (USD 66). Please let me know if you are interested. You can find some photos at the bottom of this email for your reference.

I am afraid that we do not supply license plate lights and I am not aware of any supplier.

We can have the bumpers ready for shipping within 15-20 working days after receipt of payment. Shipping is with DHL airfreight which only takes 3-4 days straight to your door.

With regards to payment - we accept Paypal, Bank transfer, Credit Card. In case you decide to order, please let me know which method you prefer, I will then send you more details.
Should you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to contact me.

Best regards,

Thao

Nguyen Huong Thao

Sales & Marketing Executive, Group Harrington




Dear Yan,


Thanks for your email.

Please find a photo of Mercedes 187 bumpers with trim embellishers below. We also supply the rear trim embellishers with or without cutouts for the number plate lights and the country code. Please let me know which type you require.
The bumpers come with all pre drilled holes for over riders and trim embellishers. We also send along all bolts and nuts to mount the parts together mount the bumpers to the car.

As quoted before, the price for a set of Mercedes 187 bumpers with trim embellishers is GBP 753 including shipping.
If you want to go ahead with an order, I have inserted a Pay Pal button below for GBP 753 in case you want to pay by Pay pal. Just click on the button and you will be redirected to www.paypal.com where you can make payment.


Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 19, 2014, 06:49:50 PM
In their first photo they show the "County Code" plate.  - I would assume that my car would not have had that. 

The first photo has a reverse light.  Is that stock?  I have two holes drilled into my bumpers on the bottom.  One on the left and one on the right.  Are those for reverse lights?

Their photos don't appear to have reflector holes.  Should they?

Do we have a license plate bracket or holes for a bracket or just holes for a license plate?  My holes in this area don't fit a license plate.  I have a 1951/1952 plate and they don't fit that either.  I assume they are for a bracket?

thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 20, 2014, 10:35:07 AM
This is just from my experience with my car.

In my case, my car paperwork indicated that it was delivered with a "D-sign with illumination".  When I got the car it had no sign but the right side chrome piece did have a window on both side of it to illuminate both the license plate and the oval "D" plate.  I did get myself a "D" and made my own bracket so that I did not add any additional holes in the bumper.  I also mounted that plate so that it would be light up by that light.  I have seen some mounted above the bumper in a few photos, but I think my placement makes more sense.  Also, I believe I have seen those "D" plates that contained their own light behind a white/black plastic face, but I may be wrong on that point.

Likewise, I made my own license plate brackets to fit the slots in the front and rear bumpers.
The rear plate is my road legal plate, and my front plate is a replica of a wide/thin European design.

My front bumper was missing the two extra chrome trim pieces and I have not tried to source any because I'm not even sure they would fit with the current license plate up front.

The red reflectors. . . I have no idea if they were "standard issue" or not. In my case, there is a reflector located on the outside of the rear bumper guards.  (I also have an extra one on the bumper that was added by the previous owner, which I plan on removing, except that it actually covers a couple of holes that shouldn't be there in the first place.)

If you want any specific pictures of my bumper, let me know.  Just remember, this is what my car is like now.  For the most part, I trust what the parts book shows as probably being the base design, and then the other parts as possible options either from factory or after delivery? (D-plate, reflectors, backup light, etc.)
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 20, 2014, 10:56:04 AM
Scott,  Group Harrington makes the stainless "Embellishers" with or without the cutouts for the lights.  Not sure what that mean yet and waiting for a return email.  How does your license plate lights in the back attach?  1 or 2 holes per light or do they clip around the bumper?  My black bumpers had some major work.  The bolts broke the tabs on the bumper so holes had to be drilled into my old bumpers for the bumper supports to attach.  I have further emailed Group Harrington and I must admit they really do answer my specific questions.  I don't want to drill anything into the finished bumpers.  My bumperettes or "riser" holes appear to have a hole on the rear facing part of the bumper and on the bottom.  Not sure why?  I assume the original bumperettes had one bolt holding them in place. 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 20, 2014, 01:30:21 PM
If I recall, it wraps around with a single bolt on the bottom.  I'll snap some pictures. 
If they are just saying they have the "cutout", then I would assume that you would have to provide your own lens and internal electrical components.  I guess the ones without the cutout would be for those people that don't have any of the parts and just want the proper look without the real lights?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 20, 2014, 01:52:54 PM
Scott, sound goo dig you can.  I will order the cut outs with a plan to get the guts one day.

I just ordered the main harness from Rhode Island wire.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 21, 2014, 10:29:05 AM
I would have some doubts about using their rear "embellishers for the license lights in a really good restoration, but the price is so cheap that it's worth getting them anyway. Good repros are available but expensive. I have originals but by the time they are restored, they would be expensive too. 

I would not have them drill any extra holes, say for the reflectors, unless you know you have a correct set on hand. The reflectors are original, but don't look all that great so they are often left off. The original license plate holes were the slots seen in Scott's pictures, which don't fit US plates unless you mount some sort of plate holder. It looks like from their pictures, that they don't put these in. Drilling into these bumper would be easy after you get them. Filling in holes you don't want, not so easy.

So I would have them put only the bumper guard holes on the face, and the slots on the underside for the small bumperettes/license lights. If you decide to put a reverse light, or directional lights under the bumper, you can put them where you want.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 21, 2014, 08:55:30 PM
Henry, thanks for the advice.  I will order without the reflector holes and have my fingers crossed! I ordered the embellishers without the cutouts.  A solid embellishers will probably look a lot better then one missing the guts with a hole cut in the side.

Thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 22, 2014, 01:09:24 PM
I was thinking that if you had the license light pieces in hand as well  new lenses you could cut them out yourself. Then you could fit any kind of bulb holder. The original backs with the bulb holder might not work since they are made for the casting which is pretty detailed. Also, part of the bulb holder is one of those screw in plugs that MB liked to use up into the sixties. Unfortunately, the one for this light is specific to the 170S/220.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 22, 2014, 01:30:24 PM
Henry,

Waiting to hear back from them.  My last email to them was to have the rear "embellishers" as they call it without the cut outs and then perhaps one day I would find  an original.  Are you saying it may be better to have the cut outs and then rig up new lens' with a different  interior to the license plate lights?  Hmm?

Also, these are my fender chrome and side view mirror on the driver's side.  The tail lamp housing is in poor condition but the ones on the car are better.  Is this the correct side view mirror?  It always seemed a little small.  The chrome on the fender chrome is ok but parts have flaked off and the studs are in need of repair.  Do the studs come out or do I need to have new ones welded to the tips of these?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 24, 2014, 09:15:25 AM
On the cut outs, do not have them cut the openings. There may be variations in the lenses, so I would do that yourself when you have the lenses you are going to uses. I've seen variations in these repro lenses from different suppliers.

I think the studs on the fender spears may be cast in. I'm not sure what the best way to deal with this is, maybe drill them out and put a thread insert in, tricky to do since it's hard to hold these things in a drill press or milling machine.

The mirror is either a generic or VW mirror. I've seen that pivot arrangement on VW mirrors. There is no standard rearview for this car. Some have been available that mount on the edge of the door using a retainer plate under the door gasket. These work OK and may be available. I think you can get a mirror like the Cab A mirror for mounting in place of the short belt molding on the cowl. Niemoeller has had them.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 24, 2014, 12:16:53 PM
Henry,  I decided to order a rear set with the cut outs and one without.  They were inexpensive enough where it was worth it to see how they come out.  I didn't think the mirror was correct.  It was mounted on the short area of the cowl and I would assume that was original.  I will try and find another one.  Niemoeller seems to have quite a bit of stuff.  I am looking for some of the door panel clips if anyone knows where to find them.  I have attached a photo.  Additionally, I ordered a fuel filter from Mercedes and although it was not the exact, shorter one, it did fit perfectly.  I got the rubber seal instead of cork from them also.  I did not like the screen fit on the new filter.  It is a bit loose.  Henry, I may want to send you an original to re-do unless you sell the screens and it is easy to install.

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 24, 2014, 01:31:42 PM
I agree that the screen on the new filter is very poor quality, or was mis-handled at some point.
I'd consider sending it back for a replacement.
This was mine.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 25, 2014, 07:11:00 PM
I know I am multitasking here.  I am working on one part and then turning to another.  Trying to get this all done this year!  There are 3 photos here.  The first is of the window trim.  I am striping them down so that I can stain and poly.  What is the oval area in the top and bottom wood trim piece.  Did something go there?  I don't think so?  One is for the passenger side and one is for the driver's side.  One is in the front and one in the rear?  Also, the stain on the side windows is more a walnut stain where as in the front dash trim the inside of the trim that you would never see is cherry stain but the outside area (that you do see) is much darker.  Was this done to match the chocolate dash (metal)?  The front dash trim compared to the side window trim was completely different.  Any thoughts?  Any thought on stain and poly?

thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 25, 2014, 08:49:22 PM
Someone is sell this 1952 Wiring harness diagram on ebay.de

http://www.ebay.de/itm/220er-W187-Kabelbaumzeichnung-/181361142656?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item2a39f76b80

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 26, 2014, 07:15:46 AM
About three years ago, I refinished the wood of a '52 220 sedan that belongs to my cousin.  It was certainly different than what I have in my cab B.
What I found was this.  The trim around the side windows was real solid wood and could be stained and finished as anyone would expect.  However, the "wood" for the dash was not a solid piece of wood (like my cab B) but rather formed from resin soaked pieces of wood pressed into a mold.  (the inside of the dash piece showed mold markings) It would not take a stain because there was no way the stain would absorb into the wood fibers.  I did use an exterior grade Spar Varnish on the dash.  Since that color was pretty much infused into that stock, I used that as my reference to match the rest of the wood trim.  I also assume that perhaps age and sun had some impact on the color over many years.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 26, 2014, 08:44:06 AM
Scott, as you can see with the second photo showing the inside of the front dash trim it appears to have a stain color test wiped onto it but there is an obvious mold number stamped into it also.  Knowing what you are saying makes sense that the trim was most likely soaked at least on the outside.  The color is actually nice.  I am not sure if I can just clean it up?  There did not appear to be a poly or varnish on it.  Is that possible?  The color on the side window trim is completely different as you say.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 26, 2014, 12:20:59 PM
The difference in colors between the side and dash is probably due to age or previous attempts to refinish. It should all match. The pressed wood did have a finish on it I'm pretty sure. If you want to refinish it yourself, you can use automotive clear. You start with a transparent sealer, Glasurit makes one. This sealer can be tinted with single stage colors. Since the wood does not take stain very well, you can selectively apply the tinted sealer as needed to even out the color, then apply the clear which can be sanded and buffed. I did a sedan set this way and it came out great. Glasurit also makes a semi-mat clear, but I think it may not be glossy enough for wood.

On the filter screen, we solder it on in position. I don't think it can be done separately and still have a tight fit. We also can do the tank pick-up units.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 26, 2014, 01:06:38 PM
Henry, did the tank have pick up units?  Mine are just cut off.  I don't believe my wood was ever touched.  It sat in a garage from 1971 until I got it in the 80's.  The second owners never would have done anything to it.  I will follow your suggestion on the dash wood and try and re-create what was on the door trim.

Thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 26, 2014, 08:36:08 PM
I did have to do some stain mixing to get the color of the window trim to match the dash piece.
I also did some sanding on the dash to remove what finish was left and even out the tone and remove small dings.

In response to one of your earlier postings. . . you mentioned that you may want to replace the studs on the chrome trim/spears on top of the fenders.  Here is what I did when I had bad threads on my rear tail light assemblies.  The photo pretty much explains it.  I cleaned it up and cut it short.  Then I used a small brass tube and joined new threads to the old and used silver solder.  Certainly not perfect, but functional and not visible.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 26, 2014, 08:46:36 PM
I have been using 80 120 and 220 for the window trim.  If I barely scuff the dash wood should I use something in the 300 range?  Then seal and then poly?  That is an ingenious way to solve the stud issue.  Thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 26, 2014, 09:06:20 PM
In my case, I think I used the 200-300 at first.  For the 220 sedan project that I was working on, it was not a full restoration.  I was not trying to go for a glass smooth finish that I doubted it would have ever had even from the factory.  But I did use a spray and many coats with some sanding in-between with 800.  It still looked very good for my project.  Sadly, I didn't take any pictures of it.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 26, 2014, 09:28:24 PM
I just used a hot soft cloth to clean the dash trim and it really did clean up.  I wonder if I should wax it and see if I can get the shine to come back.  60 plus years of dirt build up!  The cherry stain on the inside is like glass.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 30, 2014, 04:16:34 PM
I have finished sanding the side window wood.  I am starting with the radio panel.  I am just curious if my car had a radio here and then possibly replaced with a tach.  The hole for the radio is 8.5 cm or 3 3.8" or was it solid?  Is there a radio I should be looking for or a solid panel?  My antenna kind of looks original but I am not sure.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 30, 2014, 05:34:22 PM
I just finished sanding.  I can't seem to get the stain out of the ends where it is curved.  Should this matter once this is stained or do I need it all to be exactly even in color.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on March 30, 2014, 11:39:41 PM
The wood panel came as either a blank (no radio) but with badge or was made for different models of radio's.  One of which is pictured here .... Becker "Solitude".

Here is one source for Becker and other period radios such as Telefunken.

http://www.oldtimerradio.de/shop/index.php (http://www.oldtimerradio.de/shop/index.php)
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 31, 2014, 05:42:01 AM
John,  thanks for the info.  Seems like a great source.  The even sell a real rosette tool for the knobs!

What finish and or process did you use on the two bottom photos  of the radios?

Thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 31, 2014, 06:55:19 AM
Has anyone seen the 220 logo that is on my radio faceplate?  It appears that anyone with a Becker Solitude would not have one.  The radio may take up too much space for the logo to also fit?  Radio or no radio?  Which way to go.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 31, 2014, 08:00:40 AM
That chromed strip with "220" on it would have been on the solid/blank radio face plates.  If there was a radio, the 220 logo generally wasn't used.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 31, 2014, 08:31:15 AM
So most likely my car came from the factory without a radio.  Did all the cars have the antenna area drilled out or if it was a radio delete would there be anything else where the antenna attaches?   My antenna looks like it is in a different area then standard so would I be correct to say that I should get rid of it?

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 31, 2014, 09:36:19 AM
I have no idea about the antenna.  I've seen so many different mounting points, I have no idea what would be "correct".
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on March 31, 2014, 10:10:06 AM
I know that there would be a drawing from MB for the correct location and position of the antenna.  As an example, here is the radio install drawing for the 170V models showing the antenna location.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 31, 2014, 12:33:33 PM
As far as I know, the car would not have been drilled for an antenna if there was no radio installed. Also, I have the impression that a lot of radios were installed by dealers. Your antenna, from what I can see in your photo looks like it might be the correct antenna, but not mounted in the usual spot. It should be mounted higher up on the cowl at the same angle as the windshield frame. Usually there was a stay for the mast mounted into the body somewhere at the height of the windshield.

You have the correct badge for the radio delete plate, but it's mounted in the middle of the wood. I'd say that your wood piece started out as a radio delete piece since their are no holes or cutouts for a radio. That doesn't mean that there wasn't a radio installed. Someone may have takien it out and sold it since they are valuable. I have a Telefunken radio that I would sell, provided that it is restorable.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 31, 2014, 12:42:10 PM
Thanks.  After tanking the antenna off it appears to have been added later.  The car was painted white by the doctor who purchased the car in Germany.  I think he may have put in these holes as shown below.  Also, the 220 badge that is lower then the cut out for the tachometer could have been where the tachometer was placed.  The studs would have fit in that area.  Henry, you are saying that it would have been centered there?  Sounds good.  I think I will hold off on a radio for now.  Trying to keep this towards original where I can.  But, that is something I may change in the future.  http://www.oldtimerradio.de/shop/index.php seems to have quite a lot of Becker related stuff and the wooden faceplates.

Also, it appears that the windows have a rubber seal that lifts up and seals the glass from water travelling into the door.  Additionally, the door sits in a felt channel.  Are these materials available?

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on March 31, 2014, 09:22:46 PM
Here is a photo of the rubber "window sweep" I replaced a few years ago.  I would imaginer the other material would also be available.  I think it was sold by the foot?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 31, 2014, 09:42:26 PM
Scott, who had it?  That is it!

Just found this from Niemöller.  I think it may be it.

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on April 01, 2014, 12:50:36 AM
The pictured rubber profile and others are also available from

http://www.automobilia-versand.de/Thyssen-p82h18s88-Hebeschienendichtung.html (http://www.automobilia-versand.de/Thyssen-p82h18s88-Hebeschienendichtung.html)
http://www.doepper-profile.de/artikelauswahl.php5?kat=Profile~Gummiprofile&von=61&bis=79 (http://www.doepper-profile.de/artikelauswahl.php5?kat=Profile~Gummiprofile&von=61&bis=79)
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on April 01, 2014, 07:59:56 AM
Scott, who had it?

I got mine from Art at Star Classics.  He has since moved and I'm not sure if he is still selling parts.
Here is the web site.  It does reflect his new location, but it has been years since I've bought from him.
http://www.artsstarclassics.com/index.html

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on April 01, 2014, 09:48:22 AM
There is probably a more reliable vendor you could buy from. I've had some issues with Art.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on April 01, 2014, 09:52:03 AM
Try Jim Friswold in Oregon 503-639-1158
jimfriswold@msn.com    He's pretty reliable and in th US.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on April 01, 2014, 10:40:36 AM
The material the glass sets in can be a flat rubber strip, sometimes sold as glass setting tape. Before you throw out the rubber extrusion at the base of the windows, try cleaning it up and see how it looks. I've had problems with this extrusion, at least from Niemoeller, and their stuff is usually pretty good. The problem is that the dimensions of the repro are slightly off and possibly the durometer is too hard. The result is the window won't close fully.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 03, 2014, 07:39:31 AM
Heater Core Question.  Mine needs to be rebuilt (both).  Are they for sale anywhere or is better to have them re-cored.  The core that my radiator guy can get is in a different pattern then what is on there.  Does that matter?

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on April 03, 2014, 11:13:23 AM
Usually the cores are OK, does yours leak? If not I would just have him repair what is necessary.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 03, 2014, 11:30:14 AM
Henry, the previous owner had stored it with no antifreeze and they split open.  The radiator guy can recore them but will have a different pattern of fins inside.  Both are bad.  I don't see any online.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on April 03, 2014, 01:25:22 PM
I had mine re-cored by ABC Radiato in Stockton CA, a number of years ago, for my 300. As far as I could tell, th fin pattern was thesame as the original.  Stephen
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 07, 2014, 01:08:03 PM
Car is now at the interior shop for measurements.  Greg suggested that I get a new front windshield.  Mine is pretty scratched.  I have attached a photo with the markings from my window.  Is it original?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 07, 2014, 04:51:09 PM
Couple of shots from the move today
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on April 07, 2014, 08:28:54 PM
Car is looking great!  As far as the glass is concerned "Sigla", you have period appropriate glass from a german company.  Another manufacturer was "Sekurit" which was also an original glass. for the 170/220 cars.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 07, 2014, 09:27:26 PM
Thanks  John.  Slowly getting there.  Glad to know either brand is correct.  And nothing would be possible without the amazing Peter and his restorations skills!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 08, 2014, 08:13:00 PM
Just took apart the air intake for the heater that sits on top of the radiator.  Is there a part number for this?  I do not see it in the parts manual.  I am going to blast mine tomorrow but there is quite a bit of rot inside.  Mice had moved in here sometime in the past and then the corrosion rotted the metal.  Are they available?  If I clean it up and weld/paint should I add the felt?  I saved the old pieces so cutting new material will be possible.  Who carries this material?  Thanks all!!!!

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on April 09, 2014, 07:51:17 AM
I'd be surprised if you could find an aftermarket replacement.
In my opinion, it looks as though the structural parts that support the radiator shell and the two cross bars, look to be pretty solid.  I think it could easily be cleaned up and used.  The most rusted parts are not structural or viewable once assembled.
As for the felt liner, I always wondered why it was there in the first place.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on April 09, 2014, 09:11:36 AM
I may have one.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 09, 2014, 09:52:49 AM
I will sand blast it today and see how it looks.  I may contact you Henry to see if you have found one and cost.  Shall I put new felt there when done?  What is the purpose besides mouse bedding?  Seems like it would hold moisture.  While I am on the radiator area - what rubber piece goes on the top of the radiator where the hood touches it and  on the bottom where it rests.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 09, 2014, 08:47:05 PM
Here is the sandblasted heater intake.  It has holes.  I plan on powder coating.  Should I worry about it?  Will it be fine?  If the felt goes back in you really wont see too much? 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: CraigS on April 10, 2014, 02:38:10 AM
I wouldn't try welding it as it will probably blow apart, but you could use some JB Weld to cover the holes and file it down once set. It shouldn't be affected by the heat of powder coating.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on April 10, 2014, 10:28:06 AM
I agree with Craig about welding. Use some metal filled filler on the holes. I don't think I would powder coat it though, just use paint. That way you can use some filler if necessary and build primer on the parts that show and get it looking quite good.  We don't powder coat anything, it's just my preference, but I would think that there is a limit to how much pitting you are going to cover with the powder coat.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on April 10, 2014, 12:29:26 PM
I also agree with the "JB Weld" repair.  I've used it for several things with very good success, including pitted with holes cast radiator pipe! I would be a bit concerned using powdercoat on that thin metal.  My personal preference for certain parts is a polyurethane chassis paint.  Very durable, nearly chip proof, yet pliable. The only thing I have currently had powdercoated, inside and out, is the exhaust manifold.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 10, 2014, 05:48:24 PM
Should these be painted?  What would be correct?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on April 10, 2014, 08:48:35 PM
Radiator black (flat black).
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 13, 2014, 06:22:45 PM
Does anyone know where the Tranny Tunnel Cover is located in the parts manual?  I can't seem to find it.

thanks!

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on April 14, 2014, 08:15:20 AM
I don't see it as well.  There are several other things that I have also noticed over the years that are not in there.  Seats, inside door panels, dash, etc.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 14, 2014, 08:39:40 AM
Thanks.  I have also found the same things missing.  Didn't know if the were in another book.  Was there ever an options book for the interior?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 14, 2014, 12:28:36 PM
Any suggestions on removing the tar paper/felt or whatever it is?  All of the other pieces came off nicely but the main piece above is on solid.  I was going to paint and then put the covering/felt back on but perhaps I should leave it.  I have added some photos of the interior roof also...
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 14, 2014, 12:58:02 PM
Chrome Grill.  Is the center portion chromed or painted?  What should be done with this piece?  And does anyone have for sale the chrome piece on the left side of the hood.  The long piece or know if anyone sells that piece?

thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on April 14, 2014, 01:14:25 PM
The steel center part of the grill is painted a "cement gray".  It has a very slight green cast to it in my opinion.

Regarding the inside of your roof.  Can't help you there, I don't have one on mine.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on April 14, 2014, 01:47:18 PM
The cement grey is RAL 7033. Do you mean the chrome on the hood top or one of the thin strips on the side panel?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 14, 2014, 02:02:13 PM
Henry,  the chrome on the hood top.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 14, 2014, 03:45:51 PM
Scott, I. Am sorry I meant the tar stuff on the tranny tunnel.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on April 14, 2014, 05:25:42 PM
Mine looks about like your photo.  I'd leave it on for sound deadening.  If it were to come off, I'd probably still try to use something to insulate and deaden the sound. I've seen self adhesive products such a s "Dynamat", but ones that were black and didn't have the foil.
I vote to leave it alone and just paint the metal.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 14, 2014, 06:03:34 PM
I was hoping I could easily remove it, clean and paint and re-install.  The flat pieces come off easily with a screw driver but the tunnel piece is a bit harder.  I will probably just leave it.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on April 15, 2014, 06:00:52 AM
Well, if you want to remove it, what about using a heat gun on the metal side to soften the bond and then use a wide putty knife to separate it from the metal? I suspect that would still leave some residual adhesive that a good solvent would probably address.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on April 15, 2014, 09:01:34 AM
I'd probably leave the tarry stuff where it still looks good unless you think that there is rust under it. Niemoeller has this tar type sound insulation that looks quite close to the original, so if you want to do the battery boxes where you see it. The body shop supply places have a product called Q-pads in two thicknesses that is fine for the hidden places. it's black, no foil.

I may have the hood molding. Give me a little while and I will try to look for it.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 15, 2014, 05:59:20 PM
Henry,

Thanks.  Let me know if you find it.  Also, do you have the link for Niemoller's tar paper.?  I do not see it.    I heated from underneath and removed it.  Thanks Scott. 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on April 16, 2014, 09:51:21 AM
It's C 68 097. It may not be listed in the catalog. It's about E 15 per meter, and may be about a meter wide.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 16, 2014, 10:45:57 AM
Henry, thanks.  When I look it up I see see the text but no photo.  Do they have a catalog that would show those kind of items that are not in the general parts area for a particular car?  with photos?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 16, 2014, 11:13:36 PM
What rubber goes around the grill?  Same as on  fenders?

Or is this it

https://www.niemoeller.de/w187-en/B001-41.html
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on April 17, 2014, 05:38:35 AM
See parts book, page 236 #19 (187 502 02 30).
There is probably a newer/replacement part.

https://www.niemoeller.de/w187-en/B001-36.html
I don't see that it is carried by Niemoeller. 
I'm sure others will have a vendor to check with.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 17, 2014, 08:06:00 AM
Scott, what is the difference between what you found and #43 on page 262 (000 987 01 31)?  Does #43 go on the front lip of the hood to meet #19 on page 236?

Thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on April 17, 2014, 08:27:17 PM
Which item are you referring to?  If it is the rubber across the top of the grill shell then the Niemoeller number is A50 021 and the MB number is 000 987 00 35
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 18, 2014, 11:47:43 AM
Does anyone have a photo of the rubber installed on their 220 Grill?  I found this rubber labeled "radiator rubber" from 20 years ago.  I've attached a photo.  Not sure how it mounts and if it is correct.  John I am referring to that.  This piece appears to be the same.  What holds it down?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 18, 2014, 11:55:08 AM
Another question regarding the rubber on the front fenders.  I have a photo of the rubber and a photo of the fender with the rivets.  The original rubber would have had holes for the rivets as I remember?  Is that correct?  Having said that the rivets are no longer needed.  Is that correct?  Should they be cut out.  They get in the way for the painter or is there another thought?

thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on April 18, 2014, 02:36:49 PM
I am not stating mine is correct, but here is what I've got.
One photo shows the "radiator rubber" which is what I believe is #19 on page 236.  It is flat on one side with two ribs/ridges on the outer edges on the other side.  Mine is riveted on so that it will stay in place without a raised head to interfere with the hood.

The second picture is the "Fender Rubber" that overlaps the metal lip of the front fenders where the removable side engine compartment covers joins the fenders. Again, in my case, I believe rivets were used, but the rivet only goes through the sheet metal and the back of the rubber to hold it in place.  The outside edge of the rubber then covers the rivet head and provides a smooth outer rubber edge for the side panels to ride against.  I imagine you could probably glue this rubber on if you didn't want to use rivets.

I see that my second photo may be difficult to make out.  (I've been out of town a few days and just took these quickly) what it is to show is in the very center of the photo.  the rubber is on the fender and the edge of the side engine cover is covering a good portion of the rubber.
if needed, I may have time to remove the panel for better pictures later this weekend.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 19, 2014, 09:34:51 AM
Scott,

Did you re-rivet to allow the rubber to be held down both in the grill surround rubber and the fender rubber?  Is that what I should do? 

 received my bumpers from Group Harrington.  The quality seems really good.  The bumper guards have the bottom portion cut out.  I don't think this is correct but all 4 are like this.  The license plate embellishers came as ordered.  The two front ones were attached to the bumpers and the other ones came separate.  I ordered two with the light cut outs and two with no cut outs.  Everything came well packaged from Vietnam using DHL and the shipping was very fast once sent.  All emails were answered within a day and I asked a lot of questions!  A bag came with plenty of nuts and bolts and washers.  Haven't opened it yet.  The total for everything was $1273 which included shipping.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on April 19, 2014, 11:07:21 AM
Those are the correct rubber profiles in your posts 228 & 229.  The part number that I gave you is the one pictured in your post 228.  As Scott mentioned, both are riveted to the metal.  Scott's pictured radiator grill rubber is what is used for the 170V engine hood at the cowl and at the radiator.  Don't know why there is a difference, but either one works.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on April 19, 2014, 11:29:43 AM
On the radiator rubber, the thin flange goes toward the front. The rivets they used were two part press together rivets, sometimes known as Jiffy Rivets, but they can be a pain to use. As for the rivets on the fender, you could glue that rubber on and skip the rivets.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 19, 2014, 11:31:24 AM
Thanks John and Scott and Henry, Craig and Stephen!  You guys are really helping!

The car is at the Painter.  Body parts are all stripped.  The car is getting stripped next.  Window Chrome is at the Chrome shop in Phily.  I am may wait on the rest of the chrome for a while. Most of my stuff is expectable.  It can all come off later fairly easy.

I have a couple other parts at the radiator that I don't have or not sure what they are for.

Part 2 and 15 on page 254.  Table 39 Group 52.

Part 2 - rubber?
Part 15?  Radiator Shroud?  Not quite sure what the picture is but I don't think I have that?

Here is the link to it from Niemoeller (neither of which they have):

https://www.niemoeller.de/w187-en/B001-39.html
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 19, 2014, 11:37:43 AM
Henry, thanks.  I was not sure which way to put the rubber on the radiator surround.  I will cut the rivets off the fender and decide after if new ones will go on or glue.

Are the bumperettes open on the bottom?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on April 19, 2014, 12:17:14 PM
The bumper guards are correct. All this looks very good. They have the hole in the license light for the bulb holder, but you would have to figure out how to attach an original back for the other electrical contact. It would take some effort since these are sheet metal and the originals are castings. I could send you the rivets for the grill but I'm not sure what size. If I get to this job on the car we are doing before you do, I'll know for sure.

Part number 15 was an undershield, eliminated in 1952, and not present on many cars anymore. Number two is fender welting.

Make sure your painter doesn't get too much material where those door window surrounds go. I'd get the epoxy primer on there and tape it off, then just a light coat of primer surface just before paint. No filler or spray polyester on those flanges. Any extra material can chip off when installing these.

I was at a 190 SL group tech session last weekend and the subject of paint work methodology came up.  It's been typical for bodymen over the years to apply body filler over bare metal. This is not a good idea because of the affinity of the filler for moisture, and the temperature differential from the heat of curing of the filler. It is pretty standard restoration practice to epoxy prime all metal first after dry sanding the metal (no water based metal etch wash) and cleaning with a solvent based product. Glasurit has something for metal prep only, 360-4, different than the wash solvent one might use over paint or filler.

Now of course when filler is used there will be some sanding down to bare metal and the dilemma is what to do then. You should really spot spray those places with epoxy again. One of the presentations at the meet was a rep from U. S. Chemical, who have a line of body fillers. One product he demonstrated was "Spraymax" 2K aerosol cans http://www.uschem.com/index.cfm?page=products&catid=24&pid=2 with various product including epoxy primer. Made in Germany, these cans have a fan adjustable nozzle. We haven't used these yet, but if the product inside is high quality, these cans would be very useful for touch up during body work. Eastwood sells a line of 2K products but I don't think the cans are the same as these.

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 19, 2014, 01:08:39 PM
Henry,  I will pass the info on to the painter.  I know he was going to use a metal etch wash on some spots.  Thanks for the details.  Let me know if you get to the rivets first.  I am still a ways away from that.  The bumpers guards should have the bottom open like that?

 :)
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on April 19, 2014, 03:13:54 PM
Just to elaborate on the metal etch, the theory is that you are going to get rid of any remaining corrosion and form an iron phosphate coating. In practice this coating ends up being a hazy, dusty residue. They tell you to neutralize the acid etch with water, but where does that get you? Probably more rust if the phosphate coating isn't adequate enough. If you have just dry sanded the metal with course paper then clean and coat quickly, you should be fine. If you have rust pits on the exterior metal, they should be sand blasted. The epoxy primer is a very good moisture barrier with excellent corrosion protection. This should be a must. This is a much better prep than self-etching primers which are popular in production shops.

Hopefully you have a good enough relationship with your painter that you can talk about it.

This is probably one of the biggest issues for the DIY restorer who is hiring out the body and paint work. While you may not be going for a high show quality body restoration, you don't want the job coming apart in a few years. You and others spend a lot of time trying to do the best job you can. Your body man should be receptive to methods that give you a durable result, and often that is not "the way we always do it".
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 22, 2014, 08:43:42 PM
Got my Kombi back from North Hollywood and the gas sender.  Is this a 12v sender or does it matter?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on April 22, 2014, 09:37:10 PM
It's the gauge that matters about the voltage. I assume it is still 6v?
The sender unit should work fine if the ohm range is correct ( which I assume it is).
Is the gauge still the original or did they replace the internals?
I can check the ohm range on my sender tomorrow.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 22, 2014, 09:39:40 PM
They added fuel because mine was not there and fixed the coolant sensor.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on April 23, 2014, 07:40:58 AM
The ohm range is comparable with mine, but since they provided both the sender and gauge, I would not expect a problem.
You could certainly test it on a bench.  When I did mine, I even set up a test jig that mounted the sender unit in a plastic container with water.  I measured the gas tank to get the mounting height of the sender unit and also measured the shorter of the two pickup lines in order to establish the normal gas heights. I then was able to make the adjustments to the sender unit sitting in water and I chose to adjust the unit to show "empty" as it dropped to the level of the first pickup tube, that way I am less likely to run the tank below the level of the normal pickup line.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on April 23, 2014, 09:34:17 AM
Scott, do you have a photo of the pickup lines?  There is not a large difference between mine and was wondering if they were cut.  Looks like a great way to calibrate! 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on April 23, 2014, 10:02:20 AM
No I don't, and I don't know why.  That is something I thought I would have recorded, but I can not locate a photo anywhere. 
Essentially, the long one (reserve), goes to the bottom of the tank, and the shorter (normal) one is a bit shorter.  If I recall reading somewhere, there was only about an extra 2 gals of fuel when you switched the valve from Normal to Reserve.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on May 05, 2014, 05:05:40 PM
My trunk MB Insignia is not keyed.  Should it be?  I know there is a divot on the trunk itself.  Is my star incorrect?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on May 05, 2014, 10:26:54 PM
I know mine will rotate if I apply pressure while waxing.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on May 05, 2014, 10:45:21 PM
Scott, thanks.  The painter thought it was keyed so that it would not rotate.  I will bring him the star to make sure the divot is not an exposed hole after being blasted and before painting which will be this week for all of the body parts.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on May 05, 2014, 10:48:25 PM
Also, got my mats from Poland after 62 days.  The seller said between 30 and 60 and he was right on the money.  FYI when ordering overseas the tracking began in Poland and stated it was preparing for shipment.  However no other tracking ever showed up until today when it said out for delivery...  Go figure...

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on May 06, 2014, 05:43:30 AM
From what I see it the photo, those mats look very good.  Let us know how they fit when that time comes.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on May 06, 2014, 07:01:53 AM
I will let you know.  I got them from ebay but the person, Artur, has a website at:

http://www.pojazdy-zabytkowe.eu/

He had a very high rating on ebay and was really great with communication.  Google Translate his site.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on May 07, 2014, 01:54:51 PM
Was that ebay.com or ebay.de where you found them?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on May 07, 2014, 05:02:16 PM
I don't see any items for sale by him right now.  He is:

http://www.ebay.com/usr/mikolajemilia?_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2754

His name is Artur and email is:

356@hot.pl


Hope that helps.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on May 11, 2014, 09:03:47 AM
At the painters. 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on May 11, 2014, 12:52:38 PM
On that star question, they did have a tit to prevent them from rotating, but you might have a repro or the tit was ground off in a previous replate.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: braveman170 on May 11, 2014, 03:26:00 PM
Rubber mats:

I have bought mats from Artur and they are very nice reproducuctions.
He also visited me last autumn and bought parts from me.
It is a nice guy but he does not talk english.
Only Polish and a little German.


Lars
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on May 11, 2014, 03:45:30 PM
Henry, are the original stars available?  Lars, he must use Google translate quite well.  He even had some good jokes when I was sweating for the package that was taking its time.  I think he is A+ with great communication.  I can't believe the wood trim that he sells.  It looks amazing!  I wish someone could put a new page on this site that contains the links to some good W187 sites and what they sell.  I have found quite a few with help here on the site and would never have been able to find them without the help.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on May 12, 2014, 12:15:47 PM
New trunk stars have been available, but I'm not sure if they are original. I've bought them fro Niemoeller, but not lately. MB tries to control any use of their trademark, and they seem to be getting tougher about it.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on May 19, 2014, 12:03:55 PM
Henry,  I am getting my fenders back this week.  Have you ordered the rivets for the fenders that you are going to be doing?  Also, do you have a connection for the rubber grommet set (I know there is really no set) for the firewall.  I am looking to get all new rubber for my wiring that is coming and was hoping someone already knows what is needed (size, quantity) and where to get them?  Perhaps you sell them?

thanks all!

Yan
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on May 19, 2014, 12:32:50 PM
Did you mean the rivets for the grill shell? No we have not done that yet.
The grommets I get by part number from Mercedes. I don't sell them. I don't have a great supply. You may be able to get them from Niemoeller, also.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on May 19, 2014, 03:29:31 PM
Henry,

I needed the rivets for the fenders and or the rivets for the grill shell or a part number and place to get them.   Do you by any chance have a list of the firewall grommets?  I will take a look at the parts book.  I thought perhaps you had a list already done for a restoration.  :)

Some parts back from the powder coating shop.  A little light...
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on May 23, 2014, 05:34:28 PM
The wiring harness/3 have arrived.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on May 23, 2014, 09:16:53 PM
Enjoy your wiring project, I did the wiring on both my '52 300 and 170Da. Rhode Island Wiring provides great diagrams and excellant support. Stephen
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on May 25, 2014, 01:18:17 PM
The rivets I used for the grill shell where from Jay-Cee Sales and Rivet Inc, brass-plain finish, compression- CR-DCSR04B. They have a 3/8" head. I may have to order another set of 100 because I can only find the male part of the rivet.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on May 25, 2014, 02:21:09 PM
Stephen,
I still have about 20 left from the ones you sent me several years ago.  I can put them in the mail to you.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Stephen Dietrich on May 25, 2014, 03:30:40 PM
Thanks, but I think I found some. I really need to get better organized. I find that I have double or triple of things. While I was searching for the rivets, I came across another diesel line that I just had made.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on May 31, 2014, 08:50:20 PM
things are getting painted...
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on May 31, 2014, 10:35:03 PM
When you get to the point the wire harness is being installed, would you mind taking a couple of pictures so that I can see the harness in more detail than coiled in the plastic bags?
Thanks
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on June 01, 2014, 07:22:01 AM
I certainly will Scott.  I will try and lay it side by side with the old one for comparison.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on June 23, 2014, 01:37:12 PM
Parts are mostly painted.  These parts are done and tucked out of the way!

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: mosesge on July 14, 2014, 08:32:55 PM
I have a set or darker red carpets from a 220 Cab A in very decent condition. They won't fit all your needs but are going cheap. Resaon to sell is my Cab A under a slower resto than yours was buggered over and the correct color is tan, which I intend to revert to. 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on July 17, 2014, 11:58:04 PM
Thanks for the offer.  The interior guy is doing the carpets by hand.  Still waiting for stuff to get finished...  Slow process now.

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on July 18, 2014, 10:28:15 AM
George,

What color was your leather? You are aware that when a car was fitted with luggage the trimming in the trunk was tan to match the luggage.  It's been said that all Cab A's came with luggage right, but I did have until recently, a set of trunk side panels in red, so maybe it was optional. Anyone know for sure?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on November 29, 2014, 08:16:50 PM
It has been a while with any updates.  I guess the car is in a slow stage.  The body guy had finished painting most of the bolt on parts and now is striping the car to bare metal, etc...

Here are some photos:

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on November 29, 2014, 08:26:12 PM
The interior is just getting started.  Does anyone know where to get this black fiberboard with a snaky pattern?  There is also a cloth edge.  What is that for?

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on November 30, 2014, 07:51:37 AM
Are those the pieces that are on the side of the foot area?
If so, mine were a little bit different.  If you can't locate the cardboard you are looking for, I'll show you what I did with mine as a possible alternative for you.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on November 30, 2014, 01:51:58 PM
Scott,

one is from the foot area and the other is from the trunk/wheel well area I believe.

Yan
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: CraigS on November 30, 2014, 04:38:47 PM
You can try artist's supply places for the textured board. It is available as I bought some for my 300b trunk.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on December 01, 2014, 08:46:00 AM
I think Restoration Specialities in PA will have something similar. It's called panel board.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 01, 2014, 11:13:28 AM
Thanks everyone!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on May 29, 2015, 08:03:12 PM
I finally got my door panels back.  Didn't attach the arm rest yet but here they are...

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: roadster36 on May 31, 2015, 04:46:07 PM
stunning
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on June 03, 2015, 10:46:57 AM
Thanks!  It's a slow process!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on August 06, 2015, 07:32:38 PM
My car is slowly moving along.  Actually have been waiting on the painter to finish.  Its been a year!  The motor is going to a machine shop in a few weeks.  Does anyone recommend where to get the parts needed in a rebuild like rings or pistons?  I won't know exactly what is needed until the motor comes apart but thought I might get ready for that step.

thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on May 18, 2016, 09:56:02 PM
The seats are slowly getting done at a snails pace...

Here are some photos...
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 11, 2016, 03:01:06 PM
Body is painted...  Slowly coming along...
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on December 22, 2016, 02:52:41 AM
Nice paint job!  With black it is all in the preparation.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 24, 2016, 10:21:59 PM
Thank you.  Its hard to tell in the photos with the lighting.  Old 52 is back at the interior place.   This is one slow project...

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on June 08, 2017, 05:38:07 PM
Does anyone know what the front windshield rubber looks like.  Is this it?  I don't think it is and the interior guy can't find it...  Does anyone have one?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on June 08, 2017, 07:33:27 PM
That is not windshield.  I kind of looks like the rubber that goes along the edge of the front engine compartment where the side panels and front fenders meet, but I may be wrong.

I replaced my front windshield rubber several years ago (with the help of Jim Axman).  I might have saved a cross section as a reference, but I'm not sure.
I'll see if I can find anything.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on June 09, 2017, 04:14:55 AM
Here is the profile cross section from Automobilia Versand (MB part number 12 136 671 00 20).  Also available at Niemoeller


http://www.automobilia-versand.de/en/windshield-seal-170sac.html
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on June 09, 2017, 05:43:40 AM
ok, thanks for the info.  I was told the interior is finally done.  3 plus years at the shop... I was able to get a new front windshield made in Conn. but not the rear window.  Mine has plenty of Patina (scratches).  Does anyone have a good condition rear window?  I have all new door windows, front windshield but not the rear...  Huge price difference between the two companies.  Is there a difference in the rubber?

Hope to one day drive this car. 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on June 10, 2017, 01:15:35 PM
The whole rubber situation is a minefield at this point, hard to know who is actually making the stuff and what the various vendors are selling. Niemoeller used to be pretty reliable on this, but some of their recent production is not so good in general, but not necessarily on the window gasket, it may be OK. Maybe our European friends have more detailed knowledge. Forget about worrying about price, it may bear no relation to the quality.

I'll be fitting a Cab A curved windshield with the gasket and windshield both from Niemoeller in the near future, but both were purchased some years ago.

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on June 15, 2017, 05:27:02 PM
Finally got my car back...  I hope that everyone checks these posts because I am sure I will be asking a bunch of questions...   I will start right now.

Two things:

1.  Is there an engine grommet kit that people get for the firewall area where all of the wires go into the dash area from the engine compartment or does everyone try and locate the part number for each grommet?

2.  There is a picture of the headliner here also.  There appears to be a boxy/rectangle under the dome light.  Is that correct?  It kind of shows through the headliner and I don't remember that and worry that the interior guy may have put it in wrong...

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on June 15, 2017, 09:25:16 PM
I got my grommets piece by piece.  I'm not aware of a grommet kit, but Henry would probably know.
If I recall, some of the holes just had rubber plugs.  Possibly depends on model and options? But I don't recall specific details.

I can't help of the headliner, my cabriolet is different.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on June 16, 2017, 05:27:32 AM
Scott,

did you get your grommets piece by piece using the parts manual and ordering them from Niemöller or somewhere else?...

thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on June 16, 2017, 07:59:03 AM
Yes, many came directly from MB. I'm sure some came from Niemuller.
However, it was about 10 years ago . 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: John Ellis on June 17, 2017, 01:43:37 PM
The rectangular outline at the headliner is a sheet metal support plate for the dome light that spans 2 of the wooden roof bows.  I have not seen the outline visible in most sedans.  Perhaps the plate is not mounted correctly or headliner stretched too tight?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on June 17, 2017, 03:07:42 PM
Mine is slightly different John, it attached to metal rods with angled hooks.  It appears he put it in the correct bay and maybe it is just stretch too tight on that piece of rectangular metal for the dome...  Doesn't look correct as I remember it.  I ordered several engine/electrical grommets from MB.  They were very helpful like usual.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on June 19, 2017, 11:50:47 AM
Yes you have to buy the grommets separately. Automobila Versand has some and if I remember correctly they had the correct large one near the fuse box and other places, when Niemoeller was substituting something else. Could be wrong about that. Yes the light plate should not show. Your trimmer should have known that. It's possible those "legs" on the mounting plate need to be flattened out.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on October 14, 2017, 07:25:35 AM
Does anyone know the color to paint this grill center?  Or should it be chrome?

thanks!

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: twigren on October 14, 2017, 03:24:02 PM
The car looks great. Very well done restoration processs :)
I currently work with a same project (mb 170s, 51). know how many hours it requires to accomplish what you have done so far :-)

The inside element shoukd be painted grey. Exact color code ciould be found here in the forum. However, I have done my own in chrome as I didnt have this information at time.

Best regards from sweden
Thomas
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on October 14, 2017, 04:44:10 PM
Thanks Thomas.  Perhaps one of the pros might no the code... 

Not sure I can figure the time in hours...  Years for sure...  Especially when you are relying on others to paint, or leather, etc..

I have a lot I can do now.  I need to put my new wires in and have been stalling because of an addition on my house which

has taken almost a year now.

I might have to bug Henry to see what it takes for him to rebuild my engine but he appears to be busy on Scott's for now

and I am still finishing this home project up.

:)
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on October 14, 2017, 09:49:31 PM
The color is "Cement Gray". (RAL 7033) is what I have in notes.  Henry can confirm or correct.
When I had mine painted about 9 years ago, someone had painted it black, the painter removed layers of paint and the bottom layer was a green/gray and we were satisfied that the "cement gray" was the correct color.

I would like to get mine repainted again, but first I need to find out what my final cost of the engine rebuild is going to add up to.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on October 16, 2017, 08:52:23 AM
Yes it's RAL 7033. Yes I'm available to rebuild engines if you can wait a bit. Feel free to call to discuss.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on October 16, 2017, 04:38:04 PM
Thanks Scott and Henry.  Obviously no rush on engine but I will call soon to start the conversation.  Thanks for the color code!!

Yan
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 for sale restoration
Post by: hansvdc on October 21, 2017, 05:05:02 AM
Big project on ebay only bumpers are worth it..and he can can perhaps get a title...

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1953-Mercedes-Benz-200-Series-/322839192392?hash=item4b2ab72348:g:kPwAAOSwT~ZZuua4&vxp=mtr
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: twigren on October 21, 2017, 05:21:18 PM
@hansvdc. Maybe a too tough challenge. But, honestly it's on a level I would go for a A/B-cab restoration project :-)
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on November 27, 2018, 05:25:03 AM
Project moving ahead very slowly.  Does anyone know the color code for the dash.  It is a very dark brown - like chocolate brown or darker?

Page of one, Reply 4 of this build has a photo of the dark brown.  Third photo down.  Any help would be appreciated.  The painter is having trouble

with that color for some reason.

Yan
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on November 27, 2018, 05:52:14 AM
I'm sure Henry has more information. . . .
However, mine was painted in 2008.
My notes report: MB423 "Tobacco Brown", Glasurit.
I think it looks like the same color as the original, from what I recall.

If you want a photo, or maybe a sample of the paint, let me know. 
I have a small bottle of the extra paint that might still be usable.
Scott
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on November 27, 2018, 06:34:54 AM
Scott,

can you post a photo.  Hopefully, I can see if it is the same as mine.  Also, if you get a chance this morning, can you give me a call. 

I have a question about motor parts.

thanks!  I will PM my phone #.

Yan
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 02, 2018, 06:34:38 PM
I got my dash back from the painter and have laid out the wiring.  Scary looking.  My old wire to the right and the new, neat stuff to the left.  This is going to take a while but I was pretty good with labels and photos...
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 09, 2018, 09:21:04 PM
Does anyone know what the Heater Blower Switch looks like?  Photo... or part number.  Mine looks like an aftermarket one but I am not sure.  It is the switch that would control the fans if one has them installed.

And does anyone know what holds the gas/oil gauge onto the dash?  Is it tape?  I don't have any photos of what held it in place.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on December 10, 2018, 07:31:20 AM
I'm traveling this week so I can't take photo's.
This is from memory. . . .  .   . What was your question??

Just kidding.

Your switch is like mine, or very, very similar.
The gauge cluster is held in place by a "U-shaped" metal bracket that is held in place by two threaded metal studs with nuts on the back of the cluster.  The ends of the metal bracket, when in place, touch the back of the metal dash.  The rest of the bracket is just above the back of the gauges so that when the nuts are snugged up, it pulls the cluster against the front of the dash.
Hopefully someone will provide better information.  It will be next weekend before I can get a chance to see mine again, or even access my stock of existing photos.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 11, 2018, 06:10:22 AM
Is this padding behind the dash necessary or would you install the dash with nothing.  The padding was removing in the installation.  Can't find it. 

Put nothing in its place or
Put something in its place?

thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on December 15, 2018, 08:28:48 AM
Here are a few photo's that I tried to get showing the metal brackets holding the Combination Gauge to the dash.
Two brackets.  One at each end.  One held in place by the oil line connection. The other end is held in place by the stud for the Ground wire.

The photo's are not as sharp as I had wanted, but trying to get the camera behind the dash was tricky.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on December 15, 2018, 08:41:52 AM
Regarding the "padding".  I assume it is more for noise reduction, than temperature control. 
I don't know if it is something that is usually replaced in a restoration.
Since it's not easily visible, I guess it is up to you if you want to replace it with something.  There are probably lots of modern options.  I have no idea if that original material is available.
I hope others will have input here.
Scott
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 15, 2018, 09:46:59 AM
Scott,

thanks for the great photos.  I do not believe I have those brackets for the combination gauge.  I will look when I get home but if not I can rig something up.  I have not seen them for sale anywhere.  I easily could put some modern sound protection there.  I will think about that.  It would also have to go on the floor, under the transmission cover in the center.  Easy enough to put on.

Another question...  Do you know if the Grill on the 220 is the same as for a 300?

Yan
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on December 15, 2018, 10:50:17 AM
I have no idea about the 300 grill.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 21, 2018, 01:25:16 PM
Does anyone have a w187 wiring diagram?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on December 21, 2018, 11:31:25 PM
Yes, the diagram can be found in the owners manual.
I made a copy of the page.  I also had it enlarged onto wide-format paper so that I could make notes when I did a lot of repair work on my harness several years ago.  There were many things different than the drawing.  apparently some custom modifications, but this will certainly be better than nothing.
Download the PDF for the best viewing.
I also found a 170 wire document that might be of interest.  I don't know if there are any similarities.
Also check out the "Technical Reference" section.  The owners manual is in there as well.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Charles Adamson on December 22, 2018, 12:23:22 AM
The 300 grille is different from the 220.  See the diagram from Niemoeller.

Charles Adamson
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 22, 2018, 07:42:14 AM
Scott,

have you ever seen the following schematic wire diagram.  Years ago it was on ebay and I didn't buy it.  It was in German.  I was looking for one of these.  I came upon some issues when re-wiring the car.  Rhode Island Wire suggested I send in my old harness.  I did that yesterday.  Their wiring kit was based on the 1951 220 and they realize Mercedes made changes without really documenting it to the public.  Rhode Island Wiring is awesome and will correct the wire confusion and advise me.  Thank you Scott for all of the help so far!  My engine went to the machine shop two weeks ago.  Once he takes it apart I will know what I need and I will post my list for any help here on where to look.

Thanks Charles.  There are a couple of 300 grilles for sale and they are not too much.  They looked real close but not close enough...  My grille is ok but has some pitting on the bottom.  It is the showcase of a car and I wanted mine to look a little better.  I don't have the crank hole and also need the center grille trim piece if anyone has one sitting around.

Does anyone know of any MB Supplier of NOS stuff out there?  Any hidden places besides the normal of ebay/niemoeller.de/ etc.   used is fine also.

Thanks all!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 23, 2018, 07:31:32 AM
Apparently I have the wrong headlights.  I have sealed 6v headlights with the chrome ring and an adjustment ring.  I don't believe it to be correct.  Attached a photo to show.  I see on Niemoeller they have a completely different setup.  Is that what everyone has on their 220?  They have items 86, 87, 89 and 92.  I would need to find 88.  What else is needed?  The link to their product page is:

https://www.niemoeller.de/en/w187/w187/B010/43/

Item 89, the bulb holder is a replacement version and ebay has some originals I believe.  What else do I need.  Anyone have photos of their setup?

My setup is in the attached photo:
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Charles Adamson on December 23, 2018, 12:17:49 PM
See these from a ponton. I have both cars and the headlight parts look the same.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on December 23, 2018, 03:12:12 PM
No, I have not seen that diagram.
I have ordered from Road Island Wire and pleased with their products.  I ordered the Generator-Voltage Regulator harness.  I have also ordered bulk wire and made my own repairs and minor harnesses.

My headlights are the sealed beam like yours.  If I was going just for show and full originality, I would try to source the reflector/bulb assy. that you are refering to.  I believe I was told that the sealed beam lights provide better visability at night, but I don't know for certain.  Since I do drive my car a lot, and sometimes at night, I will stay with the better visability.

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 23, 2018, 07:22:58 PM
Scott,

I have been searching for sealed 6v LED bulbs.  They would use less power but have much better visibility.  Not sure if anyone made one yet.  Plenty of 12v options. 

Have used 6v LED in the fog lights?  They make them and appear to have much more visibility also.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on December 23, 2018, 07:36:39 PM
Yes, I believe so. . . .
Check out this site:

http://www.classicandvintagebulbs.com/

About 10 years ago, I bought a lot of replacement bulbs from him that were 6V Halogen.  I needed brighter brake light in particular.  He didn't have LED at that time as the technology was still fairly new for the classic cars.
It looks like he now has LED as well.  I have not checked the site for details recently, but he was good to work with when I made my Halogen conversions.
I will look into the LED as well, but will welcome any feedback from you or anyone else that has tried the newer LED technology bulbs.

If I recall correctly, he is located in Australia
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 23, 2018, 10:12:01 PM
I just emailed them along with another us based company called ledlight.com  Hopefully someone will have an answer.  12v led sealed are all over the place.  I don't see any for 6v but 6v led bulbs are available especially if you have the original setup and all you need to do is replace the bulb.  Will let you know what they say.

thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 30, 2018, 08:15:18 PM
Does anyone know the part number for the heater distribution box and know why it is not in the parts manual?  The flap on mine (passenger side)  is broken
and I am looking for a working one.  I need it before putting in the dash.

https://www.niemoeller.de/en/w187/w187/B010/58/

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on December 31, 2018, 08:13:28 AM
If I recall, many of the body parts are similar to the 170S.  In fact, I also have a 170S shop manual for the same reason.

Even if you did find a part number, I'd be surprised if you could locate one.  Might have to repair/fabricate based off of what you still have left.

On the Niemoeller web site, download their Catalog A.  Page 151 shows a drawing of the part you want, and and a list of the part numbers, but only a few are referenced in the drawing.

Using my google translator app, my GUESS is it is the 6th item down the list?  Verteiler rechts = 187 830 04 06.

You can also email the MBclassic center.  They can probably provide additional part number information.


Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on December 31, 2018, 05:40:17 PM
Thanks Scott, you are the best.  I didn't know they had that catalog!  Probably won't find a new one but perhaps someone is selling one by part number somewhere...

Happy New Year All!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 01, 2019, 04:34:51 PM
Just want to make sure that the Grille insert (the cross hatch area that is inserted in the shell - with the exception of the center chrome piece) is cement gray RAL 7033:

https://www.fibreglast.com/product/17965/ChromaGlast-Premium-Single-Stage-RAL-Colors?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIl5Hd3cLN3wIVTVmGCh2dNQfNEAYYASABEgKFwvD_BwE

The link makes it look green... Just checking...

thanks,

Yan

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Charles Adamson on January 01, 2019, 05:05:51 PM
Scott and Yan,

The Niemoller site has English when you click on the British flag.
I noticed part  187 830 04 06 has a number 10 before the 187.
The letter G before the part number in the catalog means "used"

Charles Adamson
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on January 01, 2019, 05:19:01 PM
1) Yes, "Cement-gray" is a green/gray color.

2) Charles, The Downloaded PDF of Catalogue A is only available in German.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 01, 2019, 05:32:07 PM
Thanks Scott, Cement Gray it is.  I will keep looking for a used 187 830 04 06  heater diverter.  I really only need the flap.  If I can't find one I can have the small broken piece
fabricated on it hopefully.  Getting stuff done is really slow so I try to find any good part out there that requires no work - just perhaps paint... 

I took my motor to a machine shop near my house.  About a mile away.  Once he takes it apart I will have a part list for needed engine items...

cleaning up some pipes on the firewall:
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 01, 2019, 06:39:53 PM
Charles,

I see the 10 before 187 830 04 06.  Where do you see the used?

Yan

I just emailed them.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Charles Adamson on January 01, 2019, 09:58:20 PM
I have a hard copy of Catalog A and C. On page 151 of catalog A the G appears in front of the part number which translates to used.
Here is a print screen of the heater parts.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 02, 2019, 05:25:38 AM
Charles, I have ordered the catalog.  Its interesting how the Mercedes diagrams in the main parts book or on their heating and ventilation area don't show the part.  The online pdf catalog does however on page 151 and hopefully they have a used one.

thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 03, 2019, 06:41:42 AM
I just got the two rear license plate lights on ebay.  The left one is normal but the right one has a window on each side.  Any ideas?
In the picture you can see through to the other window.  It would light on both sides where the left one only lights on the license plate side.
part number 1365400504



Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on January 03, 2019, 07:57:19 AM
Yes,
If you had a oval "Country Plate", such a s "D", it would be to the right side of the right light and the window would provide light for it.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 03, 2019, 08:20:38 AM
Scott, thanks again.  Kind of what I suspected but want sure.

Cheers
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 03, 2019, 08:54:14 AM
Is there rubber that goes on the license plate lights and the bumper Embellishments so that they aren't directly metal-on-metal?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on January 03, 2019, 10:30:21 AM
Yes, I've seen black and gray, I think. . . .
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on January 21, 2019, 12:05:21 PM
I don't think the license lights or the small embellishers had any gaskets against the bumper.

Yan are you still looking for the heater flap? I might have one but am not sure. I have some of these assemblies but I don't think that I would want to split up a complete unit.

Can I make a suggestion? I think you should paint your water pipes on the firewall. For extra protection I've been plating these black first, then painting.

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 21, 2019, 04:22:00 PM
Henry, thank you for your suggestion.  I will paint the water pipes black and would love your opinion on anything else you might see as I begin to assemble.  How do you plate them first?  Then you also paint them black?  What about the valve?
I would be interested in a complete heater box assembly if you have it.  I have been unable to find a used one as of yet.
Henry, so just the large bumper guards had the rubber?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on January 26, 2019, 07:38:06 PM
I have parts and hardware plated in black zinc phosphate. You must have had some hardware plated, no? I like plating some parts that are going to be painted for extra protection, especially threaded parts, since you really aren't going to effectively paint the threads on these pipes and things like the radiator stays. This is a picky thing. The valve is not painted.
Yes, only the large guards had rubber.

I will look for heater parts. If you have good main sections and I have a flap, I would rather sell the flap. Is the flap the same on both sides, I don't remember.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on January 26, 2019, 07:57:12 PM
Yes, I checked my car today, and the large guards have gray rubber.  The lights did not have anything.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 27, 2019, 06:20:29 AM
Henry, I have had some parts powder coated and some painted.  I have not done any zinc coating.  Do you dip them using chemicals yourself or do you send them out?  I will look into that.  Does powder coating offer the same protection?  I have a friend with a powder coating business and have used him for a bunch of parts.  I have the one flap here and will pick up my other heater box with flap.  I would assume they are the same but not sure.  Will let you know.  Black or gray rubber for bumper guard?  Which way to go?  I didn't have that.  Thank you!

Yan
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on January 27, 2019, 10:00:03 AM
The flap appears to be flat. That's the one I have at my house and I assume both are the same way. Not sure if you can look at what you have Henry and see if I am correct. Here are two photos of that one flap.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on January 27, 2019, 02:07:39 PM
I send out the zinc plating. We do use a tool blackening product in the shop, in a pinch. It's not as durable as the black zinc phosphate that gets done by the industrial plater. Some of the parts that are brownish gray, like brackets and other MB specific parts were done in an iron phosphate process, sometimes known as "Bonderizing". Some people assume that this is untreated metal because of the color. My plater does not do this and maybe I will eventually find someone who does. The black zinc phosphate is not jet black unless it is oiled, so it suffices. For a really high quality finish on black, they do a zinc with black, or black over zinc, but this is more expensive because they have to wire hang all the parts. Supposedly it is also less scratch resistant. My plater will either oil the job or not. I'm not sure what that product is. Usually standard hardware I have oiled, but I rinse most of it off.

Here is my supplier for the blackening chemicals:

( SKU: PRE-45118 , Description: Metal Polish/Cleanser, 1 pint , Quantity: 2 )
( SKU: PRE-45109 , Description: Tool Black - one quart , Quantity: 1 )
Order Total: $106.34

Victor Machinery Exchange, Inc.
56 Bogart Street
Brooklyn, NY 11206-3817
Phone: 800.723.5359
International: 718.366.9293
Fax: 718.366.7026
Email: sales@victornet.com
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 15, 2019, 07:27:42 AM
Any advice:

I am looking to see what is available for my 1952 220 Sedan for an engine rebuild.  The motor is:
 M180/180.920 with motor number: 08766/52
The local machine shop is looking for the following:
Pistons & rings            1st oversize      80.50 mm

Main bearings              1st undersize    59.71 mm

Rod bearings               1st undersize    47.71 mm

I would replace the camshaft and oil pump as a routine engine rebuild.  If available, new timing sprockets and timing chain.  Obviously a complete gasket set as well. 

I have not disassembled the cylinder head yet.  The book shows valve guides with various oversize options.  I will up date this list and mail it again after I inspect the head.   
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 15, 2019, 12:02:27 PM
Got this back from the classic center:
Hi Yan

Here is what we can still order from Germany.

Rod bearings 1st repair 47.75mm $262.00

Camshaft- $370.00

Timing Chain- $264.00

Left engine cover gasket- $22.50

 

Below are parts that are no longer supplied

Pistons

Main bearings

Oil pump

Sprockets

Gasket set

Head gasket

Right engine cover gasket

 

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Ted on February 15, 2019, 12:26:00 PM
This vendor offers some engine spares:

https://www.oldtimer-motorenteile.com/?cat=c449_Mercedes-Benz-220--51---55-Mercedes-Benz-220--51---55.html
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 15, 2019, 01:02:50 PM
This is the part that is so frustrating!!  You never know what is available from MB Classic.  One month they may have what you need, but then it is suddenly not available.  And I rarely get any idea if it will ever be available again.  I bought my head gasket from them fall of 2017.  I guess they are out, but does that mean they will never have them again?  Who knows.
 I was able to order all the sprockets for my engine.  Maybe I was lucky.  Be sure to check Niemouller.
Also, if you do order a cam shaft, make sure you get what you need.  Same goes for the head gasket!!  In my case, my head is a higher compression that what is shown in parts manual and it takes a different head gasket and cam shaft.

So don't strictly trust the part number you see in the parts book, especially if the head is Not the original cast iron, and is the newer lightweight metal (aluminum).

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 16, 2019, 08:58:39 AM
Scott and Ted,

thank you.  It looks like quite a bit is available but I am sure some stuff will be harder to find.

Scott, I have the aluminum head but it appears to be original and an option in 52.  Is that correct?

Yan
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 16, 2019, 10:02:24 AM
From what I recall, original heads were cast iron with a compression ratio of 6.5:1.
At some point in time, they were replaced with aluminium at a compression of 6.8:1.
Latter, there was a "high compression" head that came out for the CabA and 220a, with a ratio of 7.6:1.  This head also had a different cam shaft.
(I believe there is even a 8.7:1 for the 220S)
So, make sure you check what compression head you have so that you get the correct head gaskett.
Here is a photo of the stamp om my head and the stamp on the end of the cam shaft.
The service manual has several different referances to these differences.

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 16, 2019, 05:06:19 PM
Why would be head gasket be different if they have to mate up with the same block?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 16, 2019, 05:16:48 PM
The combustion Chamber in the head is of different sizes/shapes.  The Smaller chamber is what makes the higher ratio.
The gasket mates to the head, not the Block.
I have a photo of both sizes sitting on top of each other.  It shows the different shape.
The shop manual mentions this in several places to make sure the gasket is correct.
If you look at the gasket side of the head, your gasket should match the outline of the head chambers.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 16, 2019, 05:25:24 PM
Looking at my old head gaskets, here are the part numbers stamped on them:
7.6:1 = 180 016 50 20
6.8:1 = 180 016 51 20

I don't know if they have changed since then.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 16, 2019, 05:27:46 PM
Scott, thanks for the detail.  I am off on Monday and will hit the machine shop and take a look at which one I have.

Is this the part number for the head and can you tell by the photo which head I have?

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 16, 2019, 08:31:05 PM
I don't know.  It's different than mine.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 17, 2019, 08:46:49 AM
Two side shots of my motor:

What should be painted?  Side covers?  Block?  Color?  Thanks!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 17, 2019, 12:21:37 PM
From similar conversations on this forum, I believe the consensus is that the Block, Side plates, should be black (I use satin).
The aluminum parts, oil pan, head, valve cover, are left unpainted/natural.  (I used a high temp, satin clear on my oil pan and valve cover.  I think it helps seal the aluminum and make it easier to keep the engine clean.)
Hopefully others will also comment. 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 17, 2019, 12:33:09 PM
Thank you Scott and will do the same.  Still can't find much on my head with that part number 1800160401

Hopefully, the classic center will have an answer.

I checked your engine rebuild pages and Henry mentioned a couple of piston companies in CA:

"When you know your crank bearing sizes, then check around. This will be your hardest part. You can look for pistons or have them made by Venolia or Arias in CA. This is cost effective unless you get a bargain on the pistons. I had 170 pistons made by Arias I think. These are better than original as they are forged.

Check your wrist pin size. If it is still 22mm you should round up some later 24 mm rods, since it's easier to find those pistons. If you are making pistons this won't matter."

VENOLIA went out of business last month.  Is it better to use them (such as Arias) or Niemoller or another company?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 17, 2019, 12:46:29 PM
I suspect that the part number is just for the bare aluminum casting, and not an orderable part.  I believe the official part number for the head is after it has the valve seats, and maybe guides installed.
Yes, maybe the Classic Center can help.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on February 18, 2019, 08:44:50 AM
Your head is the last version, 8.7 head used on the 220 S. It's fine to have this, but you may be buying sodium filled exhaust valves for this. This should be matched with the correct cam "33" stamped on the back to optimize but it may not matter.

The sprockets and chain are available from different sources. I ordered a tensioner sprocket from Niemoeller and I send it back because the bore was too small and the teeth looked a bit narrow, so I would stick with the branded parts like SWAG, Febi. They said that I could get an MB gear now, but if the Classic Center doesn't have them maybe not. I could have opened out the bore a little and used it, but we shouldn't have to do work on new parts to get them to fit.

The oil pump is a problem. I have used a 220 S aftermarket pump and swapped the lower case, but these may be out of production too.

Make sure your machinist completely installs the bearings and measures the bores before machining the crank. I recently bought bearings from Mercedes for a 190 SL, and they were too large! The machinist was able to machine the crank to the ID of the bearings but it was so close that he almost couldn't meet the clearance spec. They are getting new production bearings from who knows where. Also the oil holes in the rod bearings were not in the right place, and had to be drilled. I think this was a case of bearings that were made for two different applications, the old bearings had two sets of holes, the new only one.

By the way, I've been soaking the screws on some heater boxes with the hope they may come apart to salvage the flaps. One side of the flaps has a square end where the lever goes. Is yours like that? If not you may need two flaps.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 18, 2019, 09:05:14 AM
Henry, Is my head not original to the car?

Here are photos of the flap and parts:

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 18, 2019, 01:24:58 PM
Ok, so here are some photos from the machine shop.  I have camshaft 1800510401 but it is stamped 22 7 52 so it was stamped with July 22, 1952 which is in line with my car.  They did not produce the 220s Ponton 6 cylinder sedans until 1954.  Was it an early option for my car?  Which head gasket kit do I need?  When I view:  https://www.niemoeller.de/en/w187/w187/B010/2/c01491-zylinderk-dicht-e-6-7zyl-d-80mm

It appears to be the exact same head gasket.

Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 18, 2019, 01:50:56 PM

1) On the cam, are there any stamps on the end of the shaft that would be toward the firewall?

2) I can tell from your photo that the head gasket shown, is for the original low compression head. I would not be surprised that it is not available.  If you get the correct part number for the gasket for your head, you might find it available.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 18, 2019, 02:02:21 PM
Scott,

my gasket and the one on the link I put up look identical.  Here are some photos of the one side of the crank.  The other side was still covered.  Scott, it is identical to your gasket on the bottom of the top photo or the one
not in the packaging.  (or the headgasket-3 photo of yours - the top gasket is mine.)

And here is a guy selling a cam from a 53 Mercedes with a June of 52 stamping. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1953-Mercedes-Benz-W187-Camshaft-Cam-Shaft-6-cylinder-six/223299491967?epid=1834169563&hash=item33fdafd87f:g:UtkAAOSw4otcI97O:sc:USPSPriority!12486!US!-1:rk:1:pf:0
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 18, 2019, 03:12:05 PM
In my photos, the used gasket is the low compression gasket.  The new, wrapped gasket, is for the higher (7.6:1) head. 
Back in 2009, I did some work on my head.  That is when I found out that the wrong gasket had been used.
That is when I first became aware of the differences that may be encountered and that it is quite possible that some of the "original" parts may have been "upgraded" as part of a service/repair.

A similar issue may be found with the water pump and it's housing.  I ordered a water pump from the book.  It didn't fit.  Found out that the pump, and it's matching housing, was from a 220S.  It has a larger impeller and moves more water.  Not original to my year car, but a welcome improvement.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 18, 2019, 03:24:08 PM
I meant cam above - not crank...  So I am still a little confused with what henry said regarding my cam and the 220s.  Is my cam correct for the 220 w187?  Does it matter?  Should I get the same gasket I have?
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 18, 2019, 03:38:45 PM
In my opinion, you should get the gasket that is for the 8.6 head.  Not the current one shown.
I'd like to think the Classic Center could find the correct part number?

As for the cam, I have no idea. 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 18, 2019, 03:55:38 PM
I checked with Niemouller.  Knowing that the head is 8.6:1, found on the 220S, I looked in that section. 
They list the gasket for the 8.6 head as 180 016 18 20


Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 18, 2019, 03:58:17 PM
How do we know my head is 8.6:1?  I know Henry stated that but the cam is stamped from '52 which is before the 220s.  This is where I get lost.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 18, 2019, 05:06:49 PM
Scott, On the right side of my head I have 2 cut out areas where you have one with your compression stamped below the one.  For some reason I have 2 cutouts - not sure what they are for.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 18, 2019, 05:07:34 PM
First of all I miss typed.  I should have typed 8.7 (not 8.6, there was no 8.6).
Second, I trust Henry's experience .
Third, It seems a logical assumption since your photo showed 8.7 just above the part number cast into the head.
Fourth, The photo of the bottom of the head shows a combustion chamber that is "newer" than the older, almost square, shape.

So, it is definately not an old head.  It is also not like my 7.6 head.  I have to assume it is probably the 8.7 as Henry suggested.

I don't know enough about the cams.  All I know is that with mine, the cam is a newer build to go along with the head, to improve performance, and the service manual lists both as a possible combination, at the time the book was printed.  I also think the carb jets are a bit different as well, with the different cam.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Scott Montoney on February 18, 2019, 05:17:47 PM
Here is another factor that messed me up for a while.  I found out that my engine was replaced in 1963, by the factory in Stuttgart. Although the serial number on the block and the metal tag show the original serial numbers, there is a second tag that I'm told indicates it is a "swapped out, replacement". I think that is when some of my "upgrades" happened.  I understand that "unit replacement" was the preferred procedure, instead of rebuilding the existing one. 
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 18, 2019, 05:20:24 PM
I am sure henry is right also.  I wonder if my head is newer with the old cam and old head gasket.  I have no stamp on the right side like you and how the manual describes.  Even the Ponton's had the stamping so until the Classic Center opens tomorrow I will be a little lost...
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on February 24, 2019, 04:26:21 PM
Henry, here is the flap that is not broken...

Yan
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 06, 2019, 07:49:09 PM
Sorry I have been away from this forum for a while. I determined what your head is from the cast in numbers between 3 & 4 spark plugs. You posted a picture of it. Yes you have to use the 8.7 gasket. You don't have to use the newer cam, but you might get better performance with it since the valve timing is optimized for the higher compression ratio. The number stamped into the rear end of the cam for the 8.7 is 33. The earliest 220 cams have no number, then 14 followed by 14/1. I think there are more cams than compression ratios as they were fiddling with the valve timing as they went along. These designations are listed either in the 220 manual or the later 180-220SE supplement for the pontons, since the early 220a ponton had a 7.6 head.
I can't look anything up because I'm in Florida for the Amelia concours.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 07, 2019, 07:57:13 PM
Henry, I hope you are enjoying Amelia.  Post some photos!  I think what you are saying is that my cam is fine.  There is no "33" stamped on it.  Could it be behind the gear?  The one side (as shown previously) has nothing stamped on the end.  Do you know which gasket (part number) I need?  So do I have a 220 cam?  Or is it a 220a setup?  Mine was replaced then?  Thank you for your invaluable time and information!
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: Henry Magno on March 22, 2019, 08:00:59 PM
In the Niemoeller catalog, MB original number 180 016 18 20, may not be the current MB number. Their number is C 01 490. "Not in stock they say. You must use this gasket, you don't have to upgrade the cam. The cam identifier numbers are on the rear end face of the ca, facing the firewall.
Title: Re: 1952 220 Sedan W187 build restoration
Post by: yan2947 on March 23, 2019, 07:19:02 AM
Thank you Henry!