170220 FORUM

Production Variants => Postwar 170S => Topic started by: Jim Axman on December 28, 2008, 10:22:04 PM

Title: 170S, Sb model description
Post by: Jim Axman on December 28, 2008, 10:22:04 PM
A more luxurious model, aimed at the more wealthy buyer was introduced in 1949, known as the 170S (S stood for Super).  Designated the W136, the new model used a slightly longer and wider body, based on the pre-war 230, giving more interior space, a larger boot and extra chrome trim. The additional weight resulted in a number of mechanical revisions, including an enlarged 1767cc engine with a single Solex downdraught carburettor, larger brakes and revised front suspension featuring wishbones and coil springs. The 170S was the first post-war Mercedes-Benz exported outside Germany. The interior had numerous improvements, including the instruments directly ahead of the driver and very comfortable cloth-trimmed seats. In production from May 1949 until February 1952,  with a total of 28,764 built.
Title: Re: 170S, Sb model description
Post by: braveman170 on December 30, 2008, 04:00:21 PM
I have written a document explaining the differences between 170S and 170Sb. But it is written in Swedish.

Since I have worked a lot with both 220(W187), 170S and 170Sb I have seen many more differences than you think exists.

To buy a 170S as spareparts-car to a 170Sb is no good at all.
I think 170Sb has more parts equal to a 220(W187) than a 170S.
The 170Sb is top of the line model for the 170-series. After this model the cars had stripped equiptment, less chrome etc.
I will try to translate my Swedish document and upload it some other day.

A Happy New Year  To all of You out there somewhere !!!!

Lars
Title: Re: 170S, Sb model description
Post by: braveman170 on December 30, 2008, 04:15:05 PM
My 170Sb is made in April 1953 and sold in May 1953.
But all the original Swedish authorities documents says that it is a model 1952.
After buying the car I noticed that the signplate on the firewall said 1953. The I got scared and thought that car identity was not OK.
But after searching I have found that most of the Swedish 170-cars made 1950-1951 have identity 1950. Most of the cars made in 1952-1953 have identity 1952.
I have also seen many 170Vb with identity 170Va.

I don't exactly know why but perhaps the car-deales saved money by using the same identity for more than one year.


Lars
Title: Re: 170S, Sb model description
Post by: strelnik on March 15, 2009, 10:47:04 PM
I have written a document explaining the differences between 170S and 170Sb. But it is written in Swedish....I will try to translate my Swedish document and upload it some other day....

Lars

Lars,

If you send me the document or leave it here, I will translate it like I did the information which Paavo sent.

Thanks,
Darryl
Title: Re: 170S, Sb model description
Post by: Marc1340 on November 28, 2019, 05:49:37 PM
I have written a document explaining the differences between 170S and 170Sb. But it is written in Swedish.
Since I have worked a lot with both 220(W187), 170S and 170Sb I have seen many more differences than you think exists.
To buy a 170S as spareparts-car to a 170Sb is no good at all.
I think 170Sb has more parts equal to a 220(W187) than a 170S.
Lars

Hello Lars, Gentlemen
First , excuse me for coming like that on your post.
I have on project to buy a 170Sb and I try to get lore information’s.
Please I’m not finding the file you’d writted ( on english) about the differences between 170 S to 170Sb
Is this possible for you to join it on this thread ?? Or mp if you want?  Or ?
Many thanks for your help
Best regards
Marc

Title: Re: 170S, Sb model description
Post by: braveman170 on November 30, 2019, 04:01:05 PM
Hi Marc,

I have not uploaded any document in English.
I tried to translate it to English but I found out that I was no good at technical English.
With Google translate the result was no good.

I haven't fulfilled my idea...

My personal opinion:
The 170Sb is the version with most options and equipment. Top of the line.
The models 170S-V and 170D-S comming after are stripped and cheaper versions.

Positive.
170Sb has a timing chain
170Sb has a Hypoid rear axle with another ratio
170Sb has a better gearbox more similar to the Ponton

Negative:
The column shift is very tricky....often replaced with a stick shift lid.

And as I have witten before there are many differences 170S(W136) to 170Sb(W191)

The 170Sb has the same body as the 220 (W187) with a lager rear window.
Anoter firewall, heatingsystem, dashboard, Steering Wheel, thicker frame, headliner, door locks, door handles, rubber carpets, cardan shaft,

Many of these things you do not notice at your first sight.

Have a nice day!


Best Regards

Lars
Title: Re: 170S, Sb model description
Post by: Marc1340 on December 01, 2019, 03:16:59 AM
Hello Lars

First : Great many thanks for your reply and your informations.
I understand perfectly for the translation , I'm also playing sometime with english, german, french .... and its not so easy ..
I agree also with your opinion for the 170Sb witch is the top of the line for sure


For the differences between 170S and 170Sb  I note on my side  and with your help  :

Engine
- timing chain /Sb 

gear boxe
-different synchronization / Sb = better ( mean different gear boxe housing or only internal componments ? ) 
-speed shifting on the column / Sb  ( mean also a different weeling column and the different carpet ?  )

Transmission
- hypoid rear axle /Sb  mean different ratio , different alignment , different housing ( sealed not on middle )   

Body
- different rear track + 15 mm  =  1 435 mm / Sb  ( mean different subframe ?  )
- Different body between S and Sb ( witch is similar than 220)  because of the rear window more large on Sb
- Wood Rubber on rear window disappear on the same time = march 1952  / Sb and new caoutchouc ruber most large appear 
- On the same time exterior chrome ring appear on the rear window  /Sb
- Rear trunk hinges inside the trunk and not visible / Sb

Interior
- Starting button on the dashboard  / Sb 


Please could you give me more informations about these points you'd written :

Another firewall  =  due to the speed shifting or ?
heatingsystem = what is different between Sb and S ?  did the heating system is optionnal like the 170S or not ?   
dashboard = due to the engine starting button ?   
thicker frame =  where is différent ? and what is the value 
headliner = whitch differences ?  on matérial ?   
door locks = whitch differences  ?
door handles = whitch differences ?
cardan shaft = whitch differences  ?

More that points , could you please also confirm me some others points of view  :

- Somebody explain that the chrome button on the dash board is different between S and Sb model ?

- The exteriors foot plates( under front and rear back wings)   are different between S and Sb models

 
Another Gentleman  ( John ELLIS)  noted some others differences

- The fuel mixture throtle control  was eliminated  on S model until 1951 , not present on Sb model ?     

- On 170 S model 1949 - optional heater made standard mean that is the same for 170 Sb ? 

- On 170 S model 1950 - external hinged spare wheel mount available as factory option , mean that for the 170Sb its not possible to install an spare wheel mounting system ? 
 
 
Many thanks in advance for your help
Best regards
Marc
Title: Re: 170S, Sb model description
Post by: braveman170 on December 05, 2019, 01:24:45 AM
Hi

I have tried to answer some questions


Engine
- timing chain /Sb

gear boxe
-different synchronization / Sb = better ( mean different gear boxe housing or only internal componments ? )
Different syncronization, different main shaft, different end of the main shaft (straight end).

-speed shifting on the column / Sb  ( mean also a different weeling column and the different carpet ?  )
The rubber carpets have a different size.
The middle chassi cover over the gearbox has a different size and no hole for the stick shift

Transmission
- hypoid rear axle /Sb  mean different ratio , different alignment , different housing ( sealed not on middle )   
Totally different rear axle, not sealed on the middle

Body
- different rear track + 15 mm  =  1 435 mm / Sb  ( mean different subframe ?  )
The subframe has bigger dimension like the W187

- Different body between S and Sb ( witch is similar than 220)  because of the rear window more large on Sb
- Wood Rubber on rear window disappear on the same time = march 1952  / Sb and new caoutchouc ruber most large appear
- On the same time exterior chrome ring appear on the rear window  /Sb
- Rear trunk hinges inside the trunk and not visible / Sb

Interior
- Starting button on the dashboard  / Sb

Sb has a ventilator fan and a button at the dashboard to start it
Sb has another type of inside rear mirror
Sb 1953 has other sun visors
Please could you give me more informations about these points you'd written :

Another firewall  =  due to the speed shifting or ?
Complete different due to the speed shifting and the heating system and defroster air inlets
No lid over the battery

heatingsystem = what is different between Sb and S ?  did the heating system is optionnal like the 170S or not ?   
Complete different, and possible to adjust the heat from the dashboard. Standard equipment for Sb

dashboard = due to the engine starting button ?   
Sb has air inlets defroster at the right and left side
Sb has indicator lamps for Choke and blinker at the dashboard.
The steering wheel is different due to the column shift, the backside connection to the column
Sb has the same steering wheel as the 220
Sb has no blinker indicator at the center of the steering wheel

thicker frame =  where is différent ? and what is the value
Dimensions like the 220, the same material but wider and higher tubes.

headliner = whitch differences ?  on matérial ? 
The headliner is covering the whole inside roof like the Ponton, No sidepanels over the doors like 170S
 
door locks = whitch differences  ?
door handles = whitch differences ?
Three different types of locks/handles I now exists, 170S, 17Sb(Boromo) and 220/170S-V/170D-S

cardan shaft = whitch differences  ?
Different connections to both gearbox and rear axle

More that points , could you please also confirm me some others points of view  :

- Somebody explain that the chrome button on the dash board is different between S and Sb model
The buttons are the same type but Sb has one more for the ventilator fan.

- The exteriors foot plates( under front and rear back wings)   are different between S and Sb models

?
Sb has a different type of front fender and different plates beside and under the engine


 
Another Gentleman  ( John ELLIS)  noted some others differences

- The fuel mixture throtle control  was eliminated  on S model until 1951 , not present on Sb model ?     
Don’t know

- On 170 S model 1949 - optional heater made standard mean that is the same for 170 Sb ?

Standard for Sb left/right I mean
The heaters, tubes and inlets at the firewall are totally different

- On 170 S model 1950 - external hinged spare wheel mount available as factory option , mean that for the 170Sb its not possible to install an spare wheel mounting system ?
You can install it both for 170S and Sb, no problem
 
 
An to make it even more interesting there are differences between Sb 1952 and Sb 1953.
I have a Sb 1953
 :) :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: 170S, Sb model description
Post by: Marc1340 on December 07, 2019, 05:31:43 AM
An to make it even more interesting there are differences between Sb 1952 and Sb 1953.
I have a Sb 1953 :) :) :) :) :)


Hello Lars

Another time  just : " bravo !!! " and thanks for all your informations !!!! You know perfectly that cars ... also your car ,  witch is so beautiful for sure .

Please could you give more informations about these points :

An to make it even more interesting there are differences between Sb 1952 and Sb 1953.
I have a Sb 1953 :) :) :) :) :)


Thanks in advance for your patience
Best regards
Marc


Title: Re: 170S, Sb model description
Post by: Henry Magno on December 08, 2019, 12:21:30 PM
Marc, Do you have a particular 170Sb that you are thinking of buying? Unless it's a very incomplete car, I don't think at this point you need to worry about all the differences. If you haven't bought the car yet, do try to survey what is missing, at least the major things. You should focus on a car that is mostly complete and not too rusty. There are parts available.

I will make one comment about the column shifter. These can be tricky to get right but are fine when they are set up properly. I think they make the car more pleasurable to drive than the floor shift. Many people like the "vintage look and feel" of the floor shift but wouldn't want it if I had the choice. I restored a 170 Sb quite a while ago where the owner started to make the conversion to floor shift. I talked him out of it, and built the car with the column shift. A number of years later, a new owner wanted the floor shift and had me convert it, against my advice. I can't remember the details, but the tunnel parts which are removable are not directly interchangeable and the cut out on the cowl is a different shape. The tunnel for the column shift car is taller.
Title: Re: 170S, Sb model description
Post by: Marc1340 on December 08, 2019, 05:44:55 PM
Good evening Henri

First of all thank you for your interest, your answer and your feedback. Its very interesting
To answer the first point I saw last month two models of 170 Sb here on Europe  that may interest me.
Both models are in parts and would be complete (to be checked !!!). One of them belonged to a former repairer and I do not know if all the parts belong to the model Sb.
That's why I need to know the differences between 170S and Sb ...
Also as you know certainly ,and as Nietzsche said  "the devil is hiding in the details" and when I talk about something I prefer to know what I'm talking about
In addition we are a little "on late" on the documentation Mercedes here in France  and more particularly on the W136-W191 and W187 and we are sorely lacking information.
I hope it does not bother anyone in the forum that I ask all these and my questions , but I preferred talking with experts than people whom don't know .
For helping everybody , if necessary I could synthesize all the information collected and make a benefit of the community by establishing a document like the one wanted by our friend Lars previously.
Best regards

Marc 
Title: Re: 170S, Sb model description
Post by: braveman170 on December 10, 2019, 12:30:27 PM
Hi

Since the Sb has an engine with a timing chain the oilpump and the camshaft are also different.
Otherwise they would rotate in the wrong direction.

The first Sb 1952 has wood trims at the doors and the dashboard. Sb 1953 has trims made of "Pagholz" a kind of bakelite.

The Sb 1952 has a cover at the bottom of the radiator grill för manuel start.
The Sb 1953 has no hole for this function.
Some of the first Sb 1952 has the same hood lock function as the 170S. My friend has this early version.

I think that theese differences were all done at different times.
In the 170Sb parts catalouge you can see from which chassie number the changes were introduced.

I have driven my Sb 60.000km with a column shift and I prefeer it compared to the stick shift.


Thats all for today!

If you wisit the meeting i Haigern Germany 2020 I will be there with my Sb.


Title: Re: 170S, Sb model description
Post by: Marc1340 on December 13, 2019, 11:44:30 AM
Hello lars

As every time  , thanks  lot !!!

Thanks for the lot of  informations you'd getting here .

I will check the chassis numbers for validation of the changes .

For sure we 'd on project to come on Haigern with a friend whom have a 170S  but needed some restoration job , otherwise I would like to come with my diva ( 220Seb Cpé)  (http://)
Title: Re: 170S, Sb model description
Post by: braveman170 on December 13, 2019, 12:02:06 PM
Hi

I think I have had a discussion with your friend at the german forum.

Have a nice day!
Title: Re: 170S, Sb model description
Post by: Marc1340 on December 13, 2019, 12:47:20 PM
Hi Lars

Yess probably Benznard , friend of me ...... French people whom love W136 are not  as numerous as that !! Little country with a french touch !!

Your  Cpé seem beautiful too !!, very nice !

Nice week to you