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Author Topic: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN  (Read 37693 times)

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Offline Des

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1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« on: January 13, 2010, 06:13:12 AM »
1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1953-MERCEDES-BENZ-220-4-DOOR-SEDAN_W0QQitemZ110478556182QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item19b908fc16


BODY IS IN EXCELLENT SHAPE!  ORIGINAL BLACK PAINT.  VERY DESIREABLE CAR TO RESTORE OR HOTROD.   WE JUST GOT THIS IN ON A TRADE.  FREE AND CLEAR ARIZONA TITLE.  NO MOTOR OR TRANNY.


On Jan-08-10 at 21:10:48 PST, seller added the following information:


We have had several people ask about the steering column and data plates.  If you would like to see pictures of these, send us your email and we will send you pictures.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Jan-12-10 at 20:47:12 PST, seller added the following information:


WE DO HAVE THE STEERING WHEEL (NICE SHAPE) AND THE COLUMN, BUT NO STEERING BOX OR THE TIE ROD. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE WHEEL OR ANY OTHER PICTURES JUST SEND US YOUR EMAIL AND WE WILL BE GLAD TO SEND THOSE TO YOU. WE ACQUIRED THIS CAR ON A TRADE AND JUST DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO WORK ON ALL MY PROJECTS.



Offline hansvdc

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Offline Comrade Stalin

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2010, 04:55:24 PM »
1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1953-MERCEDES-BENZ-220-4-DOOR-SEDAN_W0QQitemZ110478556182QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item19b908fc16


BODY IS IN EXCELLENT SHAPE!  ORIGINAL BLACK PAINT.  VERY DESIREABLE CAR TO RESTORE OR HOTROD.   WE JUST GOT THIS IN ON A TRADE.  FREE AND CLEAR ARIZONA TITLE.  NO MOTOR OR TRANNY.


On Jan-08-10 at 21:10:48 PST, seller added the following information:


We have had several people ask about the steering column and data plates.  If you would like to see pictures of these, send us your email and we will send you pictures.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Jan-12-10 at 20:47:12 PST, seller added the following information:


WE DO HAVE THE STEERING WHEEL (NICE SHAPE) AND THE COLUMN, BUT NO STEERING BOX OR THE TIE ROD. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE WHEEL OR ANY OTHER PICTURES JUST SEND US YOUR EMAIL AND WE WILL BE GLAD TO SEND THOSE TO YOU. WE ACQUIRED THIS CAR ON A TRADE AND JUST DON'T HAVE THE TIME TO WORK ON ALL MY PROJECTS.

It is too late Gentleman, I bought it already, going to ship it to my Fatherland. Considerations are welcome.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 04:57:11 PM by Comrade Stalin »

Offline John Ellis

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2010, 08:36:52 PM »
Congratulations!
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Comrade Stalin

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2010, 11:12:46 PM »
Congratulations!

მადლობელი ვარ ბატონო ჩემო! ;)
means - Thank you mister.

I need quick help to choose right tires.
 http://store.coker.com/product.php?productid=695012449&cat=0&page=1
Coker recomends

would P195/75R15 American Classic 3/4"  be right size tire or there is better choice?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 06:59:32 PM by Comrade Stalin »

Offline John Ellis

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2010, 01:58:52 PM »
The closest match to the original 640-15 tire in a radial tire is a 185/80 R15.  Another selection is a 185 R 15.   The 195/75 R15 has the widest profile but about the same outside diameter as the original and other sizes mentioned.  All are adequate selections.  Decision is probably price and availability.

I believe Scott Montoney recently purchased new tires for his 220, perhaps he could share his experience and post some pictures for you to see.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2010, 02:32:19 PM by John Ellis »
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Comrade Stalin

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2010, 05:42:46 PM »
The closest match to the original 640-15 tire in a radial tire is a 185/80 R15.  Another selection is a 185 R 15.   The 195/75 R15 has the widest profile but about the same outside diameter as the original and other sizes mentioned.  All are adequate selections.  Decision is probably price and availability.

I believe Scott Montoney recently purchased new tires for his 220, perhaps he could share his experience and post some pictures for you to see.

Thank you John, I heard what are you saying. It is my 1st time doing car and I don't know were to start. I thought to start with tires was a good Idea, to bay them and ship it with car, But I have no idea what kind motor do I need to put in.  I am for V8 if it would fit in and at this point I think would be better 195/75 R 15 for its widest profile. If it is not possible I would give a thought what to do. thank you again and here is my next question - would V8 pit under hood or just strait 6 motor, more older version with smaller dimensions?

Offline Des

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2010, 06:00:19 PM »
V8's have been put into 170's before, don't see why it would be an issue

Have a search on the forum for "hot rod"



Offline Comrade Stalin

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2010, 06:07:20 PM »
V8's have been put into 170's before, don't see why it would be an issue

Have a search on the forum for "hot rod"

Thank you !  :)

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2010, 10:07:18 AM »
Do you want a modern motor in this car? You can certainly acquire the correct engine and transmission for this car.

Offline Comrade Stalin

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2010, 11:19:20 PM »
Do you want a modern motor in this car? You can certainly acquire the correct engine and transmission for this car.

Thank you Henry. My goal is keep the look as the original but Remarque's "Tree Comrade" inspired me :) and going to use V8 motor with automatic transmission, but looking forward to keep the shifter on the steering wheel column.

I have had a conversation with Harry Dee and he gave me some ideas how it would work. He says - W124 or W123 gearbox would be better for me.  Of course I don't wont go nuts with this car but I really need reliable motor and Transmission, I am not handy man and very lazy to fix it if it will break somewhere 3,500 miters up to the see level I like to ride for my Georgian holidays.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 11:36:22 PM by Comrade Stalin »

Offline Des

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2010, 01:22:48 AM »
Here's some inspiration for you...

1953 Mercedes-Benz 220 Wedding Car

http://www.braatenclassics.com/1953mbwc/gallerypgp.htm




Offline Comrade Stalin

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2010, 11:38:41 AM »
Thank you Des, but have to reject this respectfully. Indeed it is to glamorous car.
Des I'm coming form my childhood and just don't agree with time is destroyed everything I loved and remember. I wish to save things as much as I can, like to keep the original dash board, convert  speedometer and save the soul of those days, keep closer to BM parts and classic lines. Car comes with original steering column and wish to keep shifter on it if I will be so lucky to have this chance.  Like Harry Dee told me -they call that style ďresto rodĒ as in hot rod but with restored look.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 01:17:05 PM by Comrade Stalin »

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2010, 06:36:06 PM »
I think you make a mistake if you think the 220 motor and transmission can't be reliable, if that's what you are afraid of. If you really want the extra power then that's up to you. I think it's generally true that satisfactory motor conversions are not that easy to do, to get all the details working correctly. If you are not that handy in designing this conversion, you might be better off staying original. I have a customer's spare engine in my shop that I think he wants to sell.

Offline Comrade Stalin

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2010, 11:22:07 PM »
I think you make a mistake if you think the 220 motor and transmission can't be reliable, if that's what you are afraid of. If you really want the extra power then that's up to you. I think it's generally true that satisfactory motor conversions are not that easy to do, to get all the details working correctly. If you are not that handy in designing this conversion, you might be better off staying original. I have a customer's spare engine in my shop that I think he wants to sell.

Wow, is it possible to get it? - think it would be something, but not for now, just little later, with my next project. Frankly 220 model is not I was dreaming about. It just came out as a good chance after spending a lot time find something from WWII. My 7 years of Son wonted me to got 170 model but unfortunately I couldn't afford it. I've had 2 good project Opel Admirals form 1937/8 but lost it 2 years ago. It did survive WWII but did not survive Georgian-Russian war. Thanks to our Lord I fulled out my only child from there. So been in US for 12 years I could not manage restoration any of them.


To be emigrant you have to have a strong heart and to don't go nuts you need some hobby. Some of my "Comrades" play piano or doing drawing. Drawing is Ok for me but I can't play piano, could not stood my tormentress music-teacher  :)  when I was teen and it is to late for now. So I traveled back to Georgia in hope to find some WWII car for myself. I have seen few of them but could not reach agreement with the owners. If it's will be Ok I can put here some pictures of those cars.



So 220 is a challenge for me, going to take it to the seaside for summer vacation.
This is the promise I made to my Sun and than God is willing, we stay alive, we will see ...





« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 08:39:47 PM by Comrade Stalin »

Offline Harry Dee

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2010, 05:56:55 PM »
OK, I moved here in request of Generalissimus Stalin. I will try to summarize what I told him earlier in messages.

But first a disclaimer! I do not want to appear on this forum as the Ghost of Classic Cars Modified. You might have seen me earlier giving advice on how to put a W123 engine on a 170 (W136). But that is not my recommendation. I donít give recommendations (fish or beef Ė itís your choice), I just answer the questions; is it possible and how to do it.

I imagine purists like Henry turning purple reading my advice, but that is not my intention. I am a purist myself; I just happen to know a thing or two about technical conversions. As said, I do not give recommendations, but I will tell you that Iím using the original M180 engine on my W187 be the end result otherwise original or not. In my mind nothing beats originality (except maybe cubic inches, as the saying goes). But sometimes hidden updates are OK, too.

So can one put a V8 engine in the W187 at hand? Well yes. Anything is possible. They split the atom and send a man to the Moon. Is it easy? Yes and no; depends on where your thumb is located in your hand. Should you do it? That is not my thing to say. It is your car; you can do whatever you want with it.

Maybe one should start the planning by asking the following questions:

i)   Why am I changing the engine? Whatís wrong with the original?
ii)   How much loose cash do I have for the project?
iii)   What characteristics am I looking for in an engine? High peak power? Fat low rev torque? Good gas mileage? Easy maintenance? Reliability?
iv)   Can I pull off a project like this? Can I get someone else to do it for me?

About Engine Swaps in General. The W187s original engine is MB's first generation in-line six dubbed the M180. The first versions had the engine mounts in the front (and at the back of the gearbox), and pretty much all later engines had the mounts in the middle (and at the back of the gearbox). So you have to move the mounts on either the frame or the engine. Pretty simple Ė can be done with a MIG or a drill, respectively. And while adding power you also need better brakes.

An American V8. Easy power with low cost. Buy a crate engine (a small block Chevy 350) from Summit and a transmission to go with it (TH350, for example). Pretty coarse for a Mercedes-Benz but easy 300 horsepower.

A Mercedes-Benz V8. In this case we are most likely talking about the first generation of MB V8s, internally called M116 (3.5, 3.8 and 4.2 liters) and M117 (4.5, 5.0 and 5.6 liters). The gearbox to couple with that would be Daimler-Benz 722.x (automatic). All Mercedes-Benz V8s are fuel injected, so there is a bit more wiring to do. The power range in M116/M117 is from 200 to 300 horsepower.

And this said I have absolutely no doubts that the W187ís brilliant widow-maker rear axle would just snap and crack if you insert 300 hp through it. So an update there would be in order if you want to drive for longer than 20 minutes. But a rear axle update is no issue on a car with a frame like the W187. Just measuring, cutting and welding, thatís all.

Other Mercedes-Benz Engines. This is a wide variety, but possibly the best solution for a care-free "resto rod" lays here. An in-line six from the 1980s like M123 or M103? Pretty cheap and still simple electronics. A diesel engine from a wrecked W210? Reliable and comfortable power, but needs the whole front end tech from the W210 including CAN bus and all the on-board computers. And you also need to tweak the engine to think itís on a factory test bed since you canít get the speed data from the ABS sensors. Not a bolt-on job.

The Original Engine. The M180 is a nice little motor. It has some oddities, but there was a reason why Mercedes-Benz kept the engine family going for over 35 years. Even as naturally aspirated you can get 200 horsepower from the original block, if you know what you are doing and know that you are willing to pay the price in cost, labour, reliability and low rev torque. But if a 100+ with good torque is enough, then thatís your engine. And the automatic gearbox like Daimler-Benz 722.1 bolts right in.

The Steering Column Gear Stick. You can have a gear lever on the steering column on any of the above mentioned combinations. Converting the original manual steering wheel stick into an automatic is easy as ABC compared to an engine swap.

I can give you tips and pointers on how to do it, but if you donít see it in your head immediately, I am sorry to say that maybe you should still think twice about the non-original engine. And I hope I do not sound offensive or over-pessimistic saying that. But for a first car project a W187 to V8 conversion might be a bit challenging. If you want to do it completely yourself, that is.

So, any questions? :D

-Harry
W114 250 C 2.8 - W114 280 C - W187 220
Speed kills but it also makes you very fast!

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2010, 11:31:18 PM »
This is very well stated. I'm not that much of a purist, I've thought of doing some of these things myself. I don't like to see really rare cars modified, but any of the 170 or 220 sedans are certainly not in that category. If someone wants to build a modified car, that's great, but I think it takes more skill and creativity than a stock restoration to get a really satisfactory result. Some people think that an engine swap is an easier and cheaper way than staying original, and that may or may not be true depending on circumstances, as you said.

Offline Comrade Stalin

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2010, 12:04:11 AM »
Pardon for my bad English gentleman. I don't really understand what purist means. Is it same as "puritan" ?

Harry thanks a lot to be here, your point of views are very helpful, makes me give the thought to the things. I Will try to give back some answers:

I) I don't have engine in my car and it pushes me to thing what would be optimal for my needs.
II) As I sad I don't want to go nuts with this project.
III) I am looking for optimal motor, middle line.
IV) Josef Stalin can do the things.  :) not really, I'm going to have man to do it for me.


Offline Scott Montoney

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2010, 06:56:46 AM »
Pardon for my bad English gentleman. I don't really understand what purist means. Is it same as "puritan" ?

In this case, the word "purist" is someone that would only keep his car all original.  He would keep it "pure", which means it would not be spoiled by replacing parts from any other make/model of car.

Now, my comments regarding the M180 6-cylinder engine.  That is what is in my 220 Cab B.  Over the past three years, I have driven her 21,154 km.  That has been local travel as well as several long trips. 
On the open highway I can easily travel at similar speeds as the modern cars, 100-110 k/hr.  The only times that I notice the lack of torque/power is when I am traveling some of the back country roads and I come to a very steep hill.  Although I can "down shift" and make it up the hill, there are times that someone behind me is in a big hurry and wishes I could go up the hill faster.  But it is not that often that I encounter such a problem.
"Gertrude" a.k.a. "Troidl"
1952 - 220 Cabriolet B

Offline Harry Dee

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Re: 1953 MERCEDES BENZ 220 4 DOOR SEDAN
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2010, 08:37:21 AM »
The only times that I notice the lack of torque/power is when I am traveling some of the back country roads and I come to a very steep hill.

Well the easiest way to solve this inconvenience is swapping to a higher compression head. The original 6.5:1 is ridiculously low for modern fuels. The 7.6, 8.7 and 9.0 heads should fit straight on and give you much better thermal efficiency and the latest M180 9.0:1 heads have a very pleasant cam profiles. Of course you might want to tweak the ignition curve as well, and twin carbs or a Solex 4A1 four barrel wouldn't heart either, and and... ;) But basically a lot can be done without compromising the original look.

-H
W114 250 C 2.8 - W114 280 C - W187 220
Speed kills but it also makes you very fast!