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Author Topic: 170s brakes renewal  (Read 51043 times)

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Offline Stoebel

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170s brakes renewal
« on: December 06, 2012, 08:55:20 AM »
Hello guys,

As advised by some of you I'm going to change the brake hoses in my 170S.

http://stores.ebay.com/LNF-BRAKES/MERCEDES-BENZ-/_i.html?_nkw=w136&submit=Search&_fsub=1684702014&_sid=143294494

Is it hard and/or necessary to replace the master brake cilinder? I didn't do any testing of the system but the cost of the parts is quite low so I might as well change the master...

I would order:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/46-55-MERCEDES-W136-170-WHEEL-CYLINDER-KIT-X6-4-FR-2-RR-RADBREMSZYLINDER-/190755446494?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2c69e91ede
http://www.ebay.com/itm/46-50-MERCEDES-BENZ-W136-170-170V-170D-BRAKE-HOSE-SET-X4-BREMSSCHLAUCH-/190755420630?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2c69e8b9d6

and

http://www.ebay.com/itm/46-55-MERCEDES-BENZ-W136-170-MASTER-CYLINDER-REPAIR-KIT-1-HAUPTBREMSZYLINDER-/190755485285?pt=Vintage_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item2c69e9b665

What did you guys do with the brake shoes, did you replace these as well? Is it hard to attach new brake linings?

In two weeks I would like to start on the brakes with my teacher from evening class. Is it wise to start replacing the brake system so early on my project?

Thanks guys!

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2012, 10:34:02 AM »
A lot of people are buying these hoses from Argentina. I still like to buy the OE brands available in Europe. For the master I would buy the kit from Mercedes just to be sure that it is exactly correct.  001  586 15 43   For the shoes you need to find a place that will reline your shoes with new friction material, preferable bonded, not riveted. The relining shop should cut the shoes to the diameter of your re-machined drums, this is often necessary. You will need to hone your cylinders, and if they have any pits  (trust me, they will), have them re-sleeved in stainless steel. Can our European friends recommend a shop there for this? I feel that this is better than buying new since the stainless sleeve will never corrode.

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2012, 10:57:59 AM »
Thank you Henry. So where exactly did you order your hoses?
Would a shop that revises engines be able to resleeve te cilinders?

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2012, 10:41:03 AM »
When I can't get them here in the US, I get them from Niemoeller. On the sleeves, it's probably better to use someone who is doing it all the time. They have the right sleeve material and the know how to make it work. Any good general machinist could do it, but  by the time they set up to do it, it's not cost effective. That said, I have used places that aren't so great. If you don't mind shipping, you could send to Brake and Equipment Warehouse in Minnepolis MN. I think it's about $ 60 per wheel cylinder maybe 80 for the master.

Offline Scott Montoney

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2012, 12:34:31 PM »
If you don't mind shipping, you could send to Brake and Equipment Warehouse in Minneapolis MN. I think it's about $ 60 per wheel cylinder maybe 80 for the master.

About two years ago this shop did my Master and 6 brake cylinders in Stainless Steel.  In fact, the brake cylinders had previously been done in brass and it just didn't hold up to the wear.  I was very happy with the work! It was done in a timely mannor and I had no problems at all.  The brake cylinders were also rebuilt with new kits and ready to install.
My final/total costs were about $75/cylinder.  The master was a bit more.  Maybe $90.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 12:36:24 PM by Scott Montoney »
"Gertrude" a.k.a. "Troidl"
1952 - 220 Cabriolet B

Offline John Ellis

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2012, 01:15:57 PM »
Scott ... did the rebuild kits for the wheel cylinders include the pistons or just the spring, inner seals, and outer caps?
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Scott Montoney

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2012, 09:57:26 PM »
Now that you ask, I think they said the pistons were not worn enough to be replaced.
"Gertrude" a.k.a. "Troidl"
1952 - 220 Cabriolet B

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2012, 05:41:16 AM »
Has anyone rebuild the brakes cylinders on his own?

Are the parts of niemoeller of higher quality than those from Argentina?

Thanks

Offline John Ellis

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2012, 12:46:19 PM »
You can easily rebuild the brakes yourself as long as the cylinder bores are not pitted or scored.  Both Henry and Scott were talking about sleeving the bore which may not be necessary after you visually inspect them.

I got a set of the Argentine wheel cylinder repair kits and did not think that the were up to the quality of the original ATE cylinder kits.  The hoses were great.  The original ATE parts replacements may be available in europe (not stocked here).  Here are the various parts numbers for the repair kits:

master cylinder - 1" bore
     ATE              03.0370-0225.2
     FTE              RK2554
     MB               001 586 15 43 (current #); 000 586 14 88 (original #)
     Niemöller     A 42 110

wheel cylinder, front - 1" bore
     ATE              03.0470-0525.2 (060038)
     FTE              RK25313K
     MB               000 586 17 42 (current #); 000 586 15 42 (original #)
     Niemöller     C 42 167

wheel cylinder, rear - 7/8" bore
     ATE              03.0401-0222.2 (060035)
     FTE              RK2231K
     MB               000 586 16 42
     Niemöller     A 42 082

As a note, these numbers are for all 170 models; the 220 model has different wheel cylinders
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 09:50:54 AM by John Ellis »
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2012, 03:01:39 AM »
Thanks a lot!

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2012, 01:56:09 PM »
I think you might have given the wrong parts number for the front wheel cylinders. Do you happen to have the part numbers of the hoses as well?

I just ordered the katalog A from Niemöller so I can look  for the codes myself!

Offline John Ellis

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2012, 02:13:16 AM »
The part numbers were the repair kits for the wheel cylinders .... not the cylinders themselves.  You should not need new wheel or master cylinders;  in the worst case they can be sleeved for far less money than new cylinders.
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2012, 02:59:02 AM »
The part numbers were the repair kits for the wheel cylinders .... not the cylinders themselves.  You should not need new wheel or master cylinders;  in the worst case they can be sleeved for far less money than new cylinders.

I know John but still I think the number of the front repair kit isn't the correct one. It's okay, I hope to get my catalogue next week.

Offline John Ellis

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2012, 09:48:35 AM »
You are correct about the wrong number.  The Niemöller number for the front brake cylinder should read "C 42 167" not "A 42 167".  Thanks for the correction.  I changed it in my original post for the record.
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2012, 04:23:18 AM »
Ok thank you John.
I am lookikg for a way to remove the drum. My teacher says it can be done with a screw driver but I am afraid to damage the drum.
What method do you guys use?

Ps: where do you jack the car? I'm going to place it on some stands but I'm looking for the right spots.


Offline John Ellis

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2012, 10:22:09 AM »
A tool called a wheel drum puller does the job.  I don't think that the screwdriver is the best tool for the job.  I will post a picture of my puller when I get home tonight, but there are all types available.  Here in the US they can probably be rented at a auto parts store.

Jack stands should be placed under the tubular frame.  To jack your car up, there are square jacking holes under the running boards at front and back of each side.
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2012, 12:06:19 PM »
The drum has 3 8mm threaded holes. Screw in 3 8mm bolts evenly and this should push the drum off, unless it is really stuck. Soak the center of the drum at the hub with penetrating oil. Don't put too much force of the bolts. If it is really stuck, a puller as John suggests may be necessary.

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2012, 12:41:41 PM »
Thanks a lot guys I'll first try with the bolts :) And I'll look for the jack holes on the frame!

Thanks again!

Offline John Ellis

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2012, 12:28:51 AM »
Great tip Henry!  Here is a picture of the wheel drum and the 8mm threaded holes that Henry referred to.  And if you have a stubborn drum here is a puller (one of many types).  The rear drums could be really stubborn if you forget to release the parking brake   :)
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2012, 02:19:29 AM »
Great info thanks both of you!