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Author Topic: 170s brakes renewal  (Read 48229 times)

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Offline ereyal

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2012, 12:49:44 PM »
Hi there Stoebel!

The kit from Argentina is very good and contain the rubber parts and new springs. don't forget to hone your cylinders before replacing the parts.

please note, highly recommended both to redo your brake lines and to restore the master cylinder. (i got lucky and found a NEW one)



« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 12:51:16 PM by ereyal »

Offline Stephen Dietrich

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2012, 01:25:52 PM »
I was able to get my master cylinder from Mercedes. I thought the price was reasonable but don't recall how much. I used a Mercedes dealership which provides a discounted price from the Classic Center.  Stephen
Stephen Dietrich
1952 MBZ 170Da OTP
1952 MBZ 300 Cabriolet
1978 Porsche 911SC Targa
1962 Porsche 356B Super

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2012, 07:58:32 PM »
Thanks for your reply. I hope that I don't need a completely new one.

So the argentinan hoses and rubbers are good? I want to use quality products but cheaper is always nice.

Btw did anyone need to replace the brake "tubes"? I might look to make them myself.

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2012, 02:33:56 PM »
The workshop manual says that the brake lines should be fastened with pipe clamps. Does anyone know how to get the original ones? It seems that ereyal used the original clamps.

thanks!

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2012, 04:17:45 PM »
If you are going to do a serious restoration, you need to find an industrial plater who offers what we call zinc phosphate (black) and clear zinc (silver) for all the hardware you should and will reuse in the larger sizes 8 mm and bigger (smaller if it's an odd size)(unless it is damaged or really rusty), both the specialized pieces and the nuts and bolts. Some of the parts are also a kind of zinc phosphate that is grey brown in color. You will see this on special brackets, link rods etc. Right now,my plater doesn't do this so I settle for black on these parts. You will want to do as much of this at one time as possible since there are usually minimum charges. That means you should keep photos and notes of what goes where to some degree. A complete parts book is extremely helpful for re-assembly since the sizes of bolts, what washer types etc. are called out. Keep in mind that what is still on the car may not be original.

On your brake pipes you should consider the cupronickel "Cunifer"(10% nickel) alloy tubing, which is now used OE on some new cars. Available here in the US http://www.fedhillusa.com/. Here is a video http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/all-about-brake-lines/190260/. A little tech data:http://www.copper.org/applications/automotive/brake.html

For brake line flare fittings, this may be a case where you use new. Find a distributor for Cohline, a major mfg of automotive fluid systems.

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2012, 08:43:44 AM »
Henry, thanks for your reply.

I didn't mean the flare fittings, I was wondering where to get the clips to attach the brake lines to the frame.

How many percent of the total bolts were you able to reuse?

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2012, 11:30:46 AM »
Things like the pipe clips and brake hose clips I replate, but I also have enough extra stock to cover anything missing. I would check around for this hardware, maybe Niemoeller has it. Most of these things are fairly generic but not always. They definitely have the brake hose clips, the u-shaped ones. While it may seem like extra cost and effort to get stuff plated (most platers like to get the parts after sand or glass bead blasting), in the end it's probably easier working with what's on the car than trying to get close duplicates.

Maybe someone else has a source for pipe clips that are close to the originals.

Offline John Ellis

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2012, 08:27:28 PM »
Try searching for Porsche 356 or early VW "brake hose clips".  Same as 170/220 models.  Here is one example:

http://www.sierramadrecollection.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=3291

John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2012, 08:57:56 AM »
And again great tips thank you guys :)

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2012, 04:21:50 PM »
Okay saturday I removed the brake drum and the brake cylinder. The cylinder is completely stuck with rust.

How would you guys try to get rid of the rust? I will add pictures tomorrow but I forgot my camera at the garage. Thanks!

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2012, 05:04:17 AM »
I wanted to order the parts from Niemoëller (DHL came with the catalogue last friday but I wasn't home :( and with Christmas I'll just have to wait a few more days) based on the information John gave.

Is article number A 42 082 (for the rear cylinders) the correct one? The parts look different (see image attached).


Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2012, 11:23:59 AM »
This is a different design, with the seal installed on the piston. It should be fine.

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2012, 04:02:38 AM »
Thank you I ordered everything I need.

Btw would you guys use brake cleaner to get the rust out of the cilinder? I guess WD40 isn't the best stuff to use when working on brakes?


Thanks!

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2012, 10:31:37 AM »
You need a brake hone and a drill to use it in. You can use anything to lubricate when you hone, but use brake cleaner after that. To finish, soap and water is best for getting any remaining grit. Blow dry quickly. After you hone look for pitting. If you aren't sure about a spot, use a dental pick to run over it and see how deep the pit is. To me, no pitting is acceptable, but others may disagree.

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2012, 10:37:27 AM »
I can't argue enough for the stainless steel sleeving. For the comfort of knowing your cylinders aren't going to rust again, it's well worth the money even if your cylinders look good, because it's a permanent solution except for possibly having to renew the seals later. Even the seals should last longer since they won't be running over rust that will eventually come back after a while on the cast iron cylinders.

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2012, 03:24:38 PM »
Thanks again for all the info. What should be the diameter of the brake cylinder when resleeved?

Is this the same as the original diameter?

Ty
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 03:28:38 PM by Stoebel »

Offline John Ellis

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2012, 08:03:52 PM »
The diameter should be 1" for the front cylinders and 7/8" for the rear cylinders.  The master cylinder is 1" also.  They are not metric sizes.  I second Henry's opinion on sleeving.  When sleeved, the finished diameters should be the same.
John Ellis
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1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2012, 03:41:32 AM »
The diameter should be 1" for the front cylinders and 7/8" for the rear cylinders.  The master cylinder is 1" also.  They are not metric sizes.  I second Henry's opinion on sleeving.  When sleeved, the finished diameters should be the same.

In the workshop manual the metric sizes are:
Front: 25,4 mm
Rear: 22,2 mm

Offline John Ellis

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2012, 10:19:46 AM »
Those are the metric equivalents, but they are actually ordered by inch sizes.
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2013, 02:18:36 PM »
Okay so I can order new brake cylinders for € 90 each at Niemoeller. I think this will be the most easy and safe thing to do... the revision kits are +- € 40 for each cylinder. This is without having the cylinders honed and possibly resleeved. So € 90 looks like a fair price. What do you guys think?

I'm not sure what to do with the brake shoes. What would be the article number at Niemoeller to buy new brake shoes? According to the catalogue it seems to be A42020?
Are the brakes shoes the same at the front and the rear of the car? I took them apart today but I didn't really compare them. I will do it tomorrow though :)