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Author Topic: 170s brakes renewal  (Read 57518 times)

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Offline John Ellis

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2013, 12:16:41 AM »
Unless your brake shoes are worn also, I would suggest that you just get them re-lined.  A good brake shop should be able to install the linings for a minimal cost.  The Niemöller number for the linings is A4205 (MB number 187 421 06 10).  The linings are the same for both front and rear wheels (8 required for all wheels).  Price on Niemöller looks high, might be for a pair of linings.  Automobilia Versand also has the brake linings for a set of 4 linings (part number 50039):

http://automobilia-versand.de/shop-Thyssen.html

New brake shoes are going to be very expensive!!!  The correct brake shoes vary from front to rear axle and in some cases front and back position on each wheel both left and right.  If you order these, you should contact Niemöller directly and give them your model, chassis number and build year.  On the 170S, they made changes to the brakes during the production run in 1950.

 
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2013, 09:25:10 AM »
I still say resleeve in stainless. I think you could ship them to Minnesota for the extra price that you will pay for the new ones. You don't even need the expensive kits from Niemoeller with the pistons. Just for the experience, try taking your cylinders apart. First try and drive the pistons in a little. Then clean up outside the pistons with sandpaper to get the rust off in front of the pistons. Wash the grit away and then drive both pistons out in one direction. Use a brass punch with a rounded end. If you can't move the pistons soak them in penetrating oil for a few days.

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2013, 01:31:29 PM »
OK I finally found the time upload some now photo's to my computer.

I went for new cylinders as the old ones didn't look good and I want a spare set before sending parts to the US.
I also received the brake tubes from Argentina.

My next step would be to disassemble the master brake cylinder and have a look at the hand brake.

What is the original colour of the plates where the brakes shoes are attached to? Mine look to be some sort of red or brown? I'm thinking about respraying the plates just to make it look clean :)

edit: I am having difficulties uploading pictures! :(
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 01:34:20 PM by Stoebel »

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #43 on: January 10, 2013, 12:19:41 PM »
Where do you stand with your restoration plan? Are you fixing what is necessary to get the car roadworthy, or are you going for a full disassembly?

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #44 on: January 10, 2013, 03:47:35 PM »
Well I've put on this plan:

First I'm going to make sure that the car is able to brake and can drive = roadworthy. Then I can drive it to my school to check some extra parts and I'm going to have the chassis redone by a professional as I'm not very good at it.

The car is overall in quite good condition and I don't think a full restoration is necessary... what do you think?

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #45 on: January 11, 2013, 12:50:28 PM »
Hard to suggest an approach. I guess I can't comment until you list what you think it needs, and what parts of it you think you want to tackle yourself, if any. My feeling is that the chassis is something that an amateur can do if he is willing to learn about how things work. Wrench work, sandblasting and painting parts, and organizing the new parts, hardware plating as we discussed is not that difficult. Now perhaps I'm saying this because in my shop, I don't do the welding, bodywork and body painting myself, and I'm not that fond of doing that kind of work.

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2013, 04:38:28 AM »
Either way it's not an easy decision.

Any info on the colour of the drums and plate the brake shoes are attached to?

Offline John Ellis

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2013, 12:36:32 PM »
Mine are black, both sides.  But everything on my car is black including the body.  It could very well be that the primer color on the inside is correct for your car; I don't know.
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2013, 11:49:13 AM »
The red color is how they usually look on the inside. If you paint them black no one will know unless they take your car apart.

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #49 on: January 15, 2013, 04:08:16 PM »
The red color is how they usually look on the inside. If you paint them black no one will know unless they take your car apart.

I want to keep things as original as possible so what would you recommend then?

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2013, 11:54:15 PM »
I've never tried to match this color so I can't give you a reference color.

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2013, 09:52:29 AM »
I will just spray them in glossy black.

I haven't been doing to match lately as it is pretty cold - 5 °C and we don't have heating in the garage.

I did went to a shop to have the brake shoes relined and I was able to replace the screws needed for the brake system with inox screws. I am also cleaning the parts with thinner and I'm hoping to continue working on the brakes starting next week (the weather will get better :) )
Yesterday, in evening class I replaced the brakes (pads and discs) of my Mercedes e w210 which was a first time for me ;)

Offline John Ellis

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2013, 07:45:18 PM »
I am not familiar with the term "inox screw".  Is that a brand name or material specification?

Don't throw the old bolts away.  If they are KAMAX (identified on the head) along with the strength number they are worth something.  In fact, if they are KAMAX, I would be willing to buy them from you.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 07:56:41 PM by John Ellis »
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #53 on: January 24, 2013, 04:36:27 AM »
I am not familiar with the term "inox screw".  Is that a brand name or material specification?

Don't throw the old bolts away.  If they are KAMAX (identified on the head) along with the strength number they are worth something.  In fact, if they are KAMAX, I would be willing to buy them from you.

I'm sorry John, inox should be translated as stainless steel. I thought it was a universal material name :) Attached is a picture of one of the screws. I'm not at home right now but I think it says VERBUS. Do you use the original bolts?

Offline John Ellis

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #54 on: January 24, 2013, 09:27:03 AM »
Thanks for the information, didn't know the term inox. 

Yes, I try to use the original bolts and screws.  Typically the bolts have larger head sizes than the new and of course all the screws are slotted, which can be hard to find in some screw types.
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Henry Magno

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2013, 09:33:25 AM »
They are also better quality than what you can buy today, I think. Stainless  steel does have some advantages, but doesn't look original. If you want to go to the extreme, stainless can be plated to black.

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2013, 12:49:19 PM »
Henry I thought you were an advocate of replacing the bolts with new?

Offline Stoebel

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2013, 02:14:24 PM »
And what do you guys do/use to clean the original bolts? Do you actually respray them or leave them all original.
Do you use some grease to tighten them, because of the brakes I'm not very fond of using grease at that location?

I let them soak for one night in some Wasbenzine (translation would be white spirit or refined petrol, the word white-spirit is used in Belgium (dutch) too but I thought it was something different than "wasbenzine" :)

Offline Stephen Dietrich

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2013, 04:50:55 PM »
White spirits I guess is tupertine but it seems Wasbenzine although similar is different.
Stephen Dietrich
1952 MBZ 170Da OTP
1952 MBZ 300 Cabriolet
1978 Porsche 911SC Targa
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Offline John Ellis

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Re: 170s brakes renewal
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2013, 11:05:52 PM »
I take a different approach ..... I soak them in a degreaser (environmentally friendly "Oil Eater") then mechanically remove any rust.  Depending upon the severity of the rust I use a vibratory tumbler with walnut shells or a wire wheel.  Most of the original bolts/screws had a black oxide finish, which in California is almost impossible to recreate without spending a huge amount of money (same with chrome).  Currently I oil the bolts/screws but I am considering trying a substitute black oxide "like" finish that doesn't require the dangerous traditional black oxide process, and produces a result that mimics the real black oxide finish.  Will let you know how that works and looks as I experiment.
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman