Main Menu


Welcome Guest

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

Search

Author Topic: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)  (Read 24465 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Azryael

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Location: San Antonio, TX
  • Year_Model: 1951 170S
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2013, 10:34:11 PM »
You seem to be torn about keeping this car. If you might want to sell it, why would it be worth the time doing a retrofit of a modern engine? You sound experienced with this sort of thing, so you must know that these kinds of modifications take a lot of effort to get everything working right and not looking like a complete mess. Even if you do a really slick job and it works well, it may be harder to sell and bring less money than a stock restoration.

I'm not a complete purist. If someone wants to build a street rod out of a 170 that's their choice. But that does not seem to be your goal. On the one hand, you say you don't want to rebuild an engine, but you are willing to engineer a transplant of the complete drivetrain including rear axle from another car which to me would be far more challenging than going stock. I realize the labor/cash factor comes into play, you may be able to put a ton of time into it but not the money for the stock engine and rebuild.

If you are willing to go Diesel with an original style engine, you might find a running OM 636, used in the 180D until 60-61?. You would have to change the oil pan and maybe some other parts, as well as converting the whole car to 12 Volt. Actually now that I think of it. I know of one that was set up and installed in a 170 that is available. It's in Canada, and I think it was running when removed.

By the way, on the gas tank, you can send it to a Gas Tank Renu franchise and there should no problem getting it cleaned and lined.

Henry,

If I got the car running, there's no way I'd ever sell it. The only way I would consider selling it, is in the state it's currently in. The intent is to make this a keeper, but it seems finding what I'm looking for is taking more time than I wanted it to.

That said, I'm pretty much set on keeping it, and focusing now on the body to get it all sorted.

The fabrication involved to fit a different motor isn't too big of a deal, and to actually do the work would be fun and enjoyable. The car will maintain its classic look, so from the exterior, no one will be able to differentiate it from another 170. It's just what's under the hood that may be different.

Now, these motors seem pretty simple, and ideally that would be the fastest way to get the car going again; how are these to rebuild? I know I can do it, and if the cost isn't all too great, I may consider doing just that. $5000 for an original running motor, while I can easily afford it, is not money well spent in my mind (a fool and his money are easily separated, so I pinch my pennies more than most).

I'd not thought of using the 636, it certainly would keep the original engine look, and perhaps be an easier install. I'm curious about that setup in Canada though.

I'll check it out! I need to pull it and inspect to see what the deal is.


Offline Azryael

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Location: San Antonio, TX
  • Year_Model: 1951 170S
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2013, 03:20:16 PM »
Been looking around, there's still that motor and gearbox for $5000, that looks like it's not been used in decades; are original motors and boxes really going for that kind of money in that kind of shape?

Offline Azryael

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Location: San Antonio, TX
  • Year_Model: 1951 170S
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2013, 11:15:16 PM »
So I started to remove the paint from the front fenders since I have them here at the house, used some aircraft remover to remove the top layer. It didn't remove the primer, and under the primer, I discovered a layer of a lighter maroon paint.

What's the best tool I can use to get it down to bare metal safely without risking thinning the panels out?

Or is it best that I strip it down to that primer? The problem with that is, when scraping off the top coat of paint, some of the primer scrapes off with it, but that's because of the scraper no doubt as the remover does nothing.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 11:24:15 PM by Azryael »

Offline Scott Montoney

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 631
  • 1952 - 220 Cab B
  • Exterior Color: Black
  • Interior color: Red
  • Location: Mason,Ohio USA
  • VIN #: 187.013.04370/52
  • Year_Model: '52 220 Cab B
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2013, 08:01:10 AM »
So I started to remove the paint from the front fenders since I have them here at the house, used some aircraft remover to remove the top layer.

Is this the type of product?  I have not used it but a buddy of mine swears by it.
http://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/auto/paint-chemicals/aircraft-remover/
"Gertrude" a.k.a. "Troidl"
1952 - 220 Cabriolet B

Offline Azryael

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Location: San Antonio, TX
  • Year_Model: 1951 170S
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2013, 10:45:05 AM »
So I started to remove the paint from the front fenders since I have them here at the house, used some aircraft remover to remove the top layer.

Is this the type of product?  I have not used it but a buddy of mine swears by it.
http://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/auto/paint-chemicals/aircraft-remover/

Scott, it's the Rustoleum, but not in the spray can; this is the jelly you coat it with using a chemically resistant brush. As I said, it works great to get that top layer off.

Should I even bother going down to bare metal? I'm kinda iffy about using a power tool to strip it all away, but sanding it by hand is going  to take forever as well.

Offline CraigS

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • ***
  • Posts: 478
  • My current project - Tatra 600 (Tatraplan)
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2013, 03:49:50 PM »
Try the 3m Clean & Strip wheels. They are very effective. Just do a small area at a time and move frequently to cut down on heat build up.

Offline Azryael

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Location: San Antonio, TX
  • Year_Model: 1951 170S
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2013, 08:05:37 PM »
Try the 3m Clean & Strip wheels. They are very effective. Just do a small area at a time and move frequently to cut down on heat build up.

Craig, I tried them on my powerdrill (use them for my Ronals), and they seem to work TOO well. I'm a little nervous about going to town on that.

I'm still debating on what to do with the inside of the panels.

Offline CraigS

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • ***
  • Posts: 478
  • My current project - Tatra 600 (Tatraplan)
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2013, 11:42:40 PM »


Craig, I tried them on my powerdrill (use them for my Ronals), and they seem to work TOO well. I'm a little nervous about going to town on that.

I'm still debating on what to do with the inside of the panels.

Too well ? Isn't that the objective ?

 You can either have the inside of the panels bead blasted, or remove the skins from the frame then have them bead blasted.

Offline Henry Magno

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • ****
  • Posts: 850
  • Location: USA, Massachusetts
  • Year_Model: 1952 220 Cab B, 1937 320 Sedan, 1937 320 Combination Coupe, 1938 320 Cab A LWB
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2013, 01:01:58 PM »
Getting back to your engine problem, I haven't had a chance to contact my friend in Canada. Also worth keeping in mind is that the OM 636 has the same crank and rods that you can use in the gas engine. It could be the basis to build a gas engine. I have to take stock of what I have, maybe one block that can be used with some repairs. I have some of the other parts you would need. If you are willing to build an engine yourself, there may be options that aren't that costly.

Offline Azryael

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Location: San Antonio, TX
  • Year_Model: 1951 170S
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2013, 03:13:14 PM »

Too well ? Isn't that the objective ?

 You can either have the inside of the panels bead blasted, or remove the skins from the frame then have them bead blasted.

Craig,

Just worried about stripping away too much metal, but I've always been overly cautious!


Getting back to your engine problem, I haven't had a chance to contact my friend in Canada. Also worth keeping in mind is that the OM 636 has the same crank and rods that you can use in the gas engine. It could be the basis to build a gas engine. I have to take stock of what I have, maybe one block that can be used with some repairs. I have some of the other parts you would need. If you are willing to build an engine yourself, there may be options that aren't that costly.

Henry,

If I go the rebuild route, I'll likely need some guidance here and there, but it's definitely doable. I'm beginning to feel rebuilding a motor would be rewarding as well. What about a gearbox though? I'll need things like the shifter mechanism as well. I really wish the PO didn't sell off that stuff. Last he told me that motor was STILL in a machine shop, and that the person he sold it to has just let it slide.

Offline John Ellis

  • Administrator
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • *
  • Posts: 1358
  • Exterior Color: Black
  • Interior color: Gray
  • Location: USA, California
  • VIN #: 136.060-00325/53
  • Year_Model: 1953 170Vb
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2013, 01:31:28 AM »
With regard to stripping the paint, there is another method that is used on sheet metal .... soda (sodium bicarbonate)  blasting.  Most places that do sand or bead blasting also do this process.  Soda blasting is being used more in California because of the environmental concerns and it causes less damage to the substrate.

Another thing to remember is that the sheet metal has a thickness of 1mm or an equivalent of about 18 gage.  This is considerably thicker  than most cars of that age.  American cars of the 1950's and 1960's were mostly 20 gage or about 30% thinner than 18 gage (the smaller the gage number the thicker the material).  Today's cars use even lighter gages but of course they are designed to "crumple" in the name of safety.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2013, 01:43:58 AM by John Ellis »
John Ellis
1953 170Vb
1958 190
2007 Porsche Cayman

Offline Azryael

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Location: San Antonio, TX
  • Year_Model: 1951 170S
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2013, 11:12:38 AM »
With regard to stripping the paint, there is another method that is used on sheet metal .... soda (sodium bicarbonate)  blasting.  Most places that do sand or bead blasting also do this process.  Soda blasting is being used more in California because of the environmental concerns and it causes less damage to the substrate.

Another thing to remember is that the sheet metal has a thickness of 1mm or an equivalent of about 18 gage.  This is considerably thicker  than most cars of that age.  American cars of the 1950's and 1960's were mostly 20 gage or about 30% thinner than 18 gage (the smaller the gage number the thicker the material).  Today's cars use even lighter gages but of course they are designed to "crumple" in the name of safety.

I thought about getting a media blaster and soda blasting, not much space though in the garage, and I'd rather save myself the money if I can do it myself.

So basically you're saying I shouldn't be concerned about going to town on it!

Also, it will be a while before I paint the car, but what sort of automotive primer is recommended? Can I do the rattlecan automotive primer and still have high quality paint put over it? I'd like to at least protect the bare metal as soon as possible.

Offline Bob G

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • subscriber
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • Location: USA, California
  • Year_Model: 1951 170
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2014, 01:05:50 AM »
I have a 1950-51 Mercedes 170S diesel engine and trans if you are interested.

Offline Azryael

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Location: San Antonio, TX
  • Year_Model: 1951 170S
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2014, 08:27:35 PM »
I'm removing more of the interior, getting ready to refinish all the wood.

What's the best way to remove the radio? And then what's the best method for removing the dash?

Offline Charles Adamson

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • ***
  • Posts: 303
  • 1951 220 Sedan
  • Exterior Color: Black
  • Interior color: Brown
  • Location: Texas USA
  • Year_Model: 1951 220
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2014, 12:25:35 PM »
The radio has two screws under the wood face plate.
The dash has a bolt on the bottom of each side. If you look at the door striker and go in the car about two inches and look up you can see the bolt. It seems a 10 mm wrench would fit.

Offline Azryael

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Location: San Antonio, TX
  • Year_Model: 1951 170S
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2014, 03:46:34 PM »
The radio has two screws under the wood face plate.
The dash has a bolt on the bottom of each side. If you look at the door striker and go in the car about two inches and look up you can see the bolt. It seems a 10 mm wrench would fit.

I removed those screws, but the radio won't budge. It can move side to side, but I don't want to pull on it.

I've managed to get the driver's side window reinstalled, but it won't stay in place. The fabric that's on the bottom of each windows has degraded. I'll be needing replacement windows or at least the brackets they go onto and that cloth bit, since mine are pretty much rusted through with the exception of the driver's side window.

Also, what's the solution for rubber trim around the windows?

Offline Henry Magno

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • ****
  • Posts: 850
  • Location: USA, Massachusetts
  • Year_Model: 1952 220 Cab B, 1937 320 Sedan, 1937 320 Combination Coupe, 1938 320 Cab A LWB
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2014, 04:23:25 PM »
There should be an attaching bolt when you remove the ashtray that holds both the radio and center of the dash.

Offline Azryael

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Location: San Antonio, TX
  • Year_Model: 1951 170S
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2014, 04:31:50 PM »
There should be an attaching bolt when you remove the ashtray that holds both the radio and center of the dash.

Thanks, Henry. I'm home for the day to search for parts so I'll do that tomorrow.

Suggestions on refinishing the wood? Some of it is totally faded, while other bits just need some cleaning.

Offline Azryael

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Location: San Antonio, TX
  • Year_Model: 1951 170S
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #38 on: October 14, 2014, 03:49:32 AM »
So how do the windows stay put? Do I need to source new window channel pieces?

Offline hansvdc

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • member
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
  • Location: Belgium, Brussels
  • Year_Model: W18 290 1935, 230 OTP W143 1938
Re: 1951 170S Restoration (San Antonio, Texas)
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2014, 03:25:34 AM »
They become expensive....

http://www.larrycarlin.com/mercedes/
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 03:35:54 AM by hansvdc »